Electric vehicle war, is gas soon to be toast?

[Regorium]

My frustration is that any good EV doesn't qualify for the federal rebate. All of the ones at $44999 MSRP have pretty large shortcomings.

I think it's just the cost that needs to come down at this point, and that could be pushed along by government incentives.

[sketchyt]

I own an EV.

I do not think gas is soon to be toast. I think it will be around for a long time.

Consumer habits for something so ingrained like gas are very difficult to change. There's also a very odd (to me) emotional, almost hostile, attachment to gas cars, particularly in North America. Also, good luck with the adoption of EV's in poorer countries with high population and little infrastructure.

The costs associated with producing an EV and gas engine are still quite a ways apart (although not nearly as much as people like to think).

That being said, some misinformation about EV's that I commonly come across:

1. "Oh no! But how will you charge your vehicle!" - I essentially have a gas station in my garage. With a 1/10 effort level of planning, I never have to charge elsewhere. In fact, I've never needed to but have just to check it out.

2. "Oh no! But the drop in winter range!" - I was able to see the range drop when we had some colder weeks. Not as much as expected. If you 'warm' the car for about 20 minutes in your garage before leaving (which on a Tesla you can now schedule it to do), the loss you get isn't too noticeable for day-to-day driving. I would have no issue with an EV as my primary vehicle, provided it has 300+KM of range. If you're travelling frequently to say... Edmonton (poor you), yes you might want to stick to a gas car in the winter.

3. "Oh no! But the price!" - Ok yeah, $52,500 is a chunk of change. But no oil changes, flushes, gas, or really any sort of maintenance (outside of tires/brakes). There's a fairly biased but interesting look at comparing the acquisition and maintenance costs of a Tesla vs Accord. Huge upfront cost, but I do believe it will only be slightly more expensive in the long run.

There are legitimate beefs I have with EV's that not a ton of people key in on:

1. "Haha! No gas! I'm so great!" - Uh, you dummy... my electricity consumption doubled (nearly tripled in one month) the minute I installed 240v in my garage. While that only means only $20-$40 extra a month, that energy (hot burning coal baby!) came from somewhere you virtue signalling idiot.

2. "Haha! No gas! I'm gonna go everywhere!" - Well, good luck in Canada going east/north. There's not a ton of superchargers in that direction. Also, there's the added annoyance that every third party charging station may use a different adapter.

3. "Haha! Giant iPad!" - Yes, the technology is super cool. But it's a little unnerving how much the vehicle relies on it. I mean, technically, if Tesla wanted to they could render the vehicle useless. I value my privacy and this vehicle is at odds with that. Clearly, how amazing the technology is outweighed that. Hypocrite.

EV's aren't at a point where they're for everyone. However, the tech has matured so quickly that I believe it can be for the majority. I think it's more affordable than people think (particularly the Tesla M3 SR+), depending on how you look at it.

Regardless of what you think about EV's, they are firmly here and are not going away. It also does not spell the doom of gas-powered vehicles, IMO.

[Weitz]

How long before the "superchargers" start charging you a pretty equivalent cost to "filling up"? Or do they charge already?

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I wonder if Ford is going for the giant touch screen because they have to keep costs down, or because they think people actually want it, or just because Tesla did it, they need to as well. I think they look ugly as sin, and are functionally far worse than what they replace.

I’ll side with you here for sure. Hate the touch screens. Give me buttons and knobs I can operate safely while driving.

[edslunch]

We’re looking at our next 8 year upgrade cycle and will sit out full EV this time around but seriously look at hybrid. I expect next time will be fully electric once the tech and infrastructure mature.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

I’ll side with you here for sure. Hate the touch screens. Give me buttons and knobs I can operate safely while driving.

Yeah, screens are the actual worst. I rented a Ford Flex last year for a weekend and fataing hated that screen. Can't do anything by feel - you have to take your eyes off the road for even the most basic functions.

[zamler]

Battery price has dropped dramatically, much more than most people realize. But there's the catch, only for Tesla since they are taking economies of scale to new (some would say ridiculous) levels.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Regorium

My frustration is that any good EV doesn't qualify for the federal rebate. All of the ones at $44999 MSRP have pretty large shortcomings.

I think it's just the cost that needs to come down at this point, and that could be pushed along by government incentives.

But why? In a province like Quebec where most of there electricity is hydro, it makes sense. But in Alberta it has been shown an EV is really no better for the environment given our generation mix. Yo then increase elctrical demand which slows our ability to reduce our carbon footprint. The grid still needs base load, so unless yo manage to only charge your car during the day when the sun shines, or on a windy day, you are contributing to the need for more baseload power from fossil fuels.



So you give tax breaks to the people who can afford the most expensive version? Tax breaks that come from tax dollars paid by people who can't afford those versions? What's the benefit? It's not the environment, so why should we do that?

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally Posted by edslunch

We’re looking at our next 8 year upgrade cycle and will sit out full EV this time around but seriously look at hybrid. I expect next time will be fully electric once the tech and infrastructure mature.

The new RAV4 Hybrid is a great example of this. $2,000 upcharge for an improvment from 8.2L/100km to 6.0.

Toyota can't make enough of these - one of the hottest selling vehicles out there.

[8sPOT]

Its coming but there's a ways to go yet.

My car was a fraction of the price of an EV, and I get 750km-800km per tank of gas (70L).

With my work commute, hockey travel, visiting parents etc the range of 300km in winter is non-starter for me. Not to mention lack of stations, and how long it takes to charge.

Until it legit becomes more viable than a gas powered car (affordability, range, charging stations) I just have no intent going down that road.

But like I said, it's coming. Just a matter of when.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by 8sPOT

Its coming but there's a ways to go yet.

My car was a fraction of the price of an EV, and I get 750km-800km per tank of gas (70L).

With my work commute, hockey travel, visiting parents etc the range of 300km in winter is non-starter for me. Not to mention lack of stations, and how long it takes to charge.

Until it legit becomes more viable than a gas powered car (affordability, range, charging stations) I just have no intent going down that road.

But like I said, it's coming. Just a matter of when.

Well yeah, but your car probably has a fraction of the performance of the top trim Model 3, too. When you go shopping for a car that can do 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, there aren't many that can achieve that, let alone for the price of a Model 3 Performance.

Nissan Leaf is $43k, so starts at a price approaching more people's budgets, but then you'd be stuck driving around a Nissan, which is the vehicle equivalent of a penalty box. I think they have a pitiful range as well, which is typical of Nissan - do what everyone else is doing but way worse and in an ugly package.

Impossible to argue with your other points, though. This is where the other guys are right about hybrids. That's such a great middle ground on this stuff. There are even plug-in hybrids now, which is cool. You could run on electric for your daily commute and running around, but the gas engine kicks in when you need it for longer trips. That's great if you're looking for fuel economy - to me what I find attractive about EVs is their speed, so I'm not interested in a commuter-style electric vehicle. I would want something that blows me away when I floor it.

[Fuzz]

Plug in hybrids and range extenders are going to be the area we see the most growth in for the next decade. Full electrics will be around, but I think sales are still going to largely favour the hybrids as more manufacturers attempt to electrify their offerings to reduce emissions as required by governments.

[8sPOT]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Well yeah, but your car probably has a fraction of the performance of the top trim Model 3, too. When you go shopping for a car that can do 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, there aren't many that can achieve that, let alone for the price of a Model 3 Performance.

Nissan Leaf is $43k, so starts at a price approaching more people's budgets, but then you'd be stuck driving around a Nissan, which is the vehicle equivalent of a penalty box. I think they have a pitiful range as well, which is typical of Nissan - do what everyone else is doing but way worse and in an ugly package.

Impossible to argue with your other points, though. This is where the other guys are right about hybrids. That's such a great middle ground on this stuff. There are even plug-in hybrids now, which is cool. You could run on electric for your daily commute and running around, but the gas engine kicks in when you need it for longer trips. That's great if you're looking for fuel economy - to me what I find attractive about EVs is their speed, so I'm not interested in a commuter-style electric vehicle. I would want something that blows me away when I floor it.

No I get that but going 0-60 down Memorial is not all that high on my list when buying an everyday driver for groceries, hockey practice and commuting to work. I guess I'm saying if you had to buy 1 vehicle for your everyday needs, right now it wouldn't be an EV....for me.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by 8sPOT

No I get that but going 0-60 down Memorial is not all that high on my list when buying an everyday driver for groceries, hockey practice and commuting to work. I guess I'm saying if you had to buy 1 vehicle for your everyday needs, right now it wouldn't be an EV....for me.

Yeah, I hear that. I wouldn't want one as the only vehicle in the family, either.

[TheIronMaiden]

I am interested in the industry applicability of EV. How soon until we see farmers switch to electric tractors, or construction companies and the like?

I can imagine that we won't see full fledged electric semi-trucks until they do away with the drivers and go fully automated.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Sliver

to me what I find attractive about EVs is their speed, so I'm not interested in a commuter-style electric vehicle. I would want something that blows me away when I floor it.

To me the biggest immediate impact they could make would be in the semi truck market. Having semis accelerate at pace with daily drivers would help improve a lot of traffic issues. The key thing being that they are the perfect candidate for specific range capabilities, with mandatory sleeping breaks which they take at gas stations which could easily be retrofitted to provide semi EV power.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I am interested in the industry applicability of EV. How soon until we see farmers switch to electric tractors, or construction companies and the like?

I can imagine that we won't see full fledged electric semi-trucks until they do away with the drivers and go fully automated.

Yeah I wonder what the yearly cost differences would be for semi-truck companies. I would assume they would save money on fuel & maintenance. Individual owners would stick to diesel, but I wonder if larger companies could get some kind of incentive to make a large change.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Yeah I wonder what the yearly cost differences would be for semi-truck companies. I would assume they would save money on fuel & maintenance. Individual owners would stick to diesel, but I wonder if larger companies could get some kind of incentive to make a large change.

Beyond cost, I think that the torque advantage of electric is an incentive for using electric semis. That said, the infrastructure would have to be in place before it became feasible.

I think that a decade is a reasonable timeline. That is when automated vehicles are predicted to be publicly sold. I can imagine that both will start to be implemented simultaneously.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

But why? In a province like Quebec where most of there electricity is hydro, it makes sense. But in Alberta it has been shown an EV is really no better for the environment given our generation mix. Yo then increase elctrical demand which slows our ability to reduce our carbon footprint. The grid still needs base load, so unless yo manage to only charge your car during the day when the sun shines, or on a windy day, you are contributing to the need for more baseload power from fossil fuels.



So you give tax breaks to the people who can afford the most expensive version? Tax breaks that come from tax dollars paid by people who can't afford those versions? What's the benefit? It's not the environment, so why should we do that?

Hey, I want free money too.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Well yeah, but your car probably has a fraction of the performance of the top trim Model 3, too. When you go shopping for a car that can do 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, there aren't many that can achieve that, let alone for the price of a Model 3 Performance.

Highly illegal. You'll literally be speed capped to 0-18 in Calgary soon.