[Trade] Tkachuk (8 yrs x $9.5 mil) + `25 4th to FLA for Huberdeau, Weegar, Schwindt & `25 1st

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It is so easy in hind sight to say they should have rebuilt when Gaudreau and Tkachuk walked, and I know a lot of fans clamored for that. But that was never going to happen and simply wasn't an option - not because ownership is against it, but because the core of the (remaining) team was way too young for a rebuild.

Andersson 26
Hanifin 25
Tanev 32
Kylington 25
Zadorov 27

Lindholm 28
Mangiapane 26
Dube 24
Backlund 33
Toffoli 30

Markstrom 32
Vladar 25

No team is going to throw in the towel on that group of players, at those ages. Especially when the opportunity to acquire Huberdeau, Weegar and Kadri to restock that core presented itself.

This wasn't a 'ownership refuses to rebuild' situation, it was the sensible and correct response to where the team was, at the time.

If it doesn't work, so be it. But it had to be tried.

And frankly, by bringing in the older players, they have actually accelerated the timeline for a rebuild, because now the team is older than average, and is very much in win now mode. So if they can't find success over then next couple years, switching gears to a full rebuild is actually a much easier decision.

Could have done a re-tool and got younger, no? There are choices in-between rebuild and going for it.

Trade Mangiapane, Coleman, Tkachuk, Tanev, Lindholm, Backlund, Toffoli and kept Monahan (along with the first).

[CroCop]

Sad that this trade is gonna bury us for the next decade.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

Could have done a re-tool and got younger, no? There are choices in-between rebuild and going for it.

Trade Mangiapane, Coleman, Tkachuk, Tanev, Lindholm, Backlund, Toffoli and kept Monahan (along with the first).

I am not suggesting that there was only one solution, simply that a rebuild was never a viable solution.

As for your second sentence, trading all those players is just a rebuild. Plain and simple. Who are you icing as a team? A bunch of prospects that you get back in trade.

[CalgaryFan1988]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I am not suggesting that there was only one solution, simply that a rebuild was never a viable solution.

As for your second sentence, trading all those players is just a rebuild. Plain and simple. Who are you icing as a team? A bunch of prospects that you get back in trade.

Sorry, I didn't mean to trade every single one of them (and it wouldn't be realistic if I expected that). I just mean't that any number of those players could have been used to re-tool. I agree that the expectations of a rebuild were unrealistic.

Edit: I still don't hate the Huberdeau trade, my only gripe is their age and the Huberdeau contract going against what Treliving has been preaching for years (a balanced roster).

[Ped]

The fact remains that at the time of the trade, most Flames fans were ecstatic, and why wouldn't they be? Tkackuk (and Gaudreau) didn't want to be on the team anymore, and they got an elite winger and a guy who has been touted as an underrated top-pairing blueliner.

Obviously it hasn't worked out (yet), but some of the criticisms are absolutely hindsight. Should Treliving have waited to extend both Huberdeau and Weegar until he had seen how they fit in?

That's a reasonable argument. But the Flames just spent a whole year wondering if Tkachuk and Gaudreau were going to leave. You can't blame them for not wanting to go through that again.

Huberdeau has been very good-to-elite for at least 5 straight seasons. Weegar.has been very good for 3 straight seasons. The track record was there.

You could legitimately argue that they should have waited, could have flipped them for assets if the season didn't work out. But if the season does work out, maybe re-signing them doesn't become as easy. And maybe ownership doesn't want to go that route.

Hard to be blame Treliving for that when pretty much every lauded it as a great deal for the Flames, dealing from a position of weakness and turning it, on paper, into one of strength.

And to be frank, both Huberdeau and Weegar have lots of time to turn it around. Probably not this season, but new city, new team, new environment - they're pros, but maybe it takes longer.

Maybe the Flames need to identify players that can work their style and get them.

Or maybe the Flames problems aren't really the players. Everyone wanted Sutter back, and everyone was thrilled, and he did a hell of a job last season - but two big reasons for that performance are gone, and I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that as society changes, as how we treat players changes, that coaches like Sutter are at risk of being left behind if they are unable to adapt.

[JohnnyB]

Perceptions of Sutter often seem less able to change than Sutter. Some people still seem to think he's a dump-and-chase, crash bang, grinder coach from 2004 even though he became more of a possession and metrics coach with a lot of focus on relationships. It's like some people didn't watch the team play last year under Sutter.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Perceptions of Sutter often seem less able to change than Sutter. Some people still seem to think he's a dump-and-chase, crash bang, grinder coach from 2004 even though he became more of a possession and metrics coach with a lot of focus on relationships. It's like some people didn't watch the team play last year under Sutter.

Well, we did watch the team play last year. And now we are watching the team play this year, and it is very different. And we are all trying to figure out why.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

What is it about old threads that attract trolls like moth to a flame? What’s wrong with being an idiot troll in a post game thread?

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Well, we did watch the team play last year. And now we are watching the team play this year, and it is very different. And we are all trying to figure out why.

Not commenting just on your post. People often raise the idea that Sutter is a dinosaur when he clearly is able to adapt and is a very smart guy.

I can't explain why they suck so much now either, though I agree it's clear the pieces aren't all fitting together after moving big pieces out and new big pieces in. They seem less than the sum of their parts now, which also makes the parts look worse than they are.

[Kasi]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Perceptions of Sutter often seem less able to change than Sutter. Some people still seem to think he's a dump-and-chase, crash bang, grinder coach from 2004 even though he became more of a possession and metrics coach with a lot of focus on relationships. It's like some people didn't watch the team play last year under Sutter.

1. Systems are only a minor part of why people are talking. Mostly in talking about how Huberdeau fits with this team.

2. Building relationships being a focus well that seems a bit propogandaish. Doesn’t sound like Tkachuk was very sold on the relationship despite being wildly successful last year. Also just human nature that when things are going good you can accept things you wouldn’t when things are going badly.

3. We knew from LA that even with cups the team shut him out. We know he had some limit to his shelf life here. We are only getting glimpses of the locker room here but it doesn’t sound rosy atm. This leads people to wonder if the team is tuning Sutter out. This however is one of those things that won’t be known til after this all blows up or unless someone leaks something. So yeah lots of speculation as Enoch says.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Perceptions of Sutter often seem less able to change than Sutter. Some people still seem to think he's a dump-and-chase, crash bang, grinder coach from 2004 even though he became more of a possession and metrics coach with a lot of focus on relationships. It's like some people didn't watch the team play last year under Sutter.

Not sure about the relationships part. IMO he's done a poor job this season with his handling of Huberdeau with some of the things he has said in the media. His system may be sound but I don't think his motivation tactics are working on this group right now.

[JohnnyB]

If Sutter moved to be head coach of another team, would you expect their performance to improve or deteriorate? I would guess for most NHL teams he would have a positive impact and would show again that he's not a dinosaur. He would study the modern game and implement a plan to try to succeed in it, as he has done with the Flames.

That's different from having a shelf life. You can adapt to the modern game and still have a shelf life.

Relationship management is my understanding of how he has described the role he plays as the head coach in the modern organization. Pretty sure he has said there are a lot more people on the coaching teams with hands on roles and more delegation of responsibility for details of the systems than there used to be, and what he does is managing that team of coaches as well as understanding players and getting the most out of them by working those player relationships.

Relationships do seem like a big problem with the team right now, and his approach may very well be a big part of that problem, but I don't see that as a matter of him being unable to adapt to a changing society or changing NHL.

[Manhattanboy]

^^^ why would an experienced relationship guy publicly humiliate our new star player?

I know others have brushed it off but I really think Sutter’s stupid comment after the Oilers game did some damage.

[Kasi]

I think his style that he wants the team to play still works fine in todays NHL. But I think that style requires buy in from the players to be very committed in working together. Ultimately his style does have some reliance on out working the opponent and being more disciplined (not in not taking penalties although they’ve been bad this year at that too but more like committing to playing a full 60 minutes every game) than them. So when the team doesn’t succeed anymore at that is it a style issue or a relationship/commitment issue? I feel it’s more the second which is why for me at least style is a minor part of the issue with this team.

The main part for me I have with his style is how Huberdeau is playing. I saw this on Twitter from one of the Flames writers but I don’t think fans were looking for Derek Ryan 2.0 when we got Huberdeau. One of the things Ryan did well was that nothing or little to nothing bad happened when he was on the ice 5-5. But also very little good happened either so it was just some value neutral time which is fine for a fourth line but not good if you’re about to get paid 10.5 million dollars and you’re trying to replace the line which was +60 last year.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

^^^ why would an experienced relationship guy publicly humiliate our new star player?

I know others have brushed it off but I really think Sutter’s stupid comment after the Oilers game did some damage.

Was that the one where he said he had to go take a ####? That comment really didn't seem typical of how he talks about his players to the press, except for it being direct. It did come across as almost spiteful or punitive. Could have been an error in judgment, or a manifestation of a bad relationship between the two, just a bad joke, or something else? I don't know. It had a bad feel to it though.

[sonq]

Speaking of relationships, I wonder if there is problems between the players? New guys, big contracts, etc. Lindholm seems to be pretty apathetic most interviews, obviously because of the losses and he seems to be upset with himself, but could it be there is a cancer in the locker room? If the players dont like each other then that would explain the lack of chemistry, I for one did not feel like giving my best for a team that had bad environment within teammates

[Burning Beard]

Don't several players have pregnant wives at home?

[sonq]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

Don't several players have pregnant wives at home?

Getting their asses handed to em on and off the ice

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Kasi

The main part for me I have with his style is how Huberdeau is playing. I saw this on Twitter from one of the Flames writers but I don’t think fans were looking for Derek Ryan 2.0 when we got Huberdeau. One of the things Ryan did well was that nothing or little to nothing bad happened when he was on the ice 5-5. But also very little good happened either so it was just some value neutral time which is fine for a fourth line but not good if you’re about to get paid 10.5 million dollars and you’re trying to replace the line which was +60 last year.

Fingers crossed this just becomes Huberdeau's version of the Yzerman transition.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Well, we did watch the team play last year. And now we are watching the team play this year, and it is very different. And we are all trying to figure out why.

3 very important players are brand new and our starter is saving 89% of shots instead of 92%.Obviously there is a lot more nuance to unpack, but it seems the defensive side of the puck has changed most:

Last year we hag 100GF and 73GA through 31gp.

This year is 92GF and 98GA.