The trials and tribulations of Glen Gulutzan

[crdr]

Let's just rehire Darryl and get back to the Finals.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

He won't though, not even if we miss the dance. I think this is Tre's guy and rather than have the coaching carousel they will show patience with him.

There's no coaching carousel. The median tenure for an NHL coach is 2.5 seasons. Hartley was here for 4 seasons (second longest in Flames history), Brent Sutter for 3 and Gulutzan already has 2 seasons under him.

[Lanny_McDonald]

double post

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Gulutzan isn't a great coach, and for sure there are lots of things that he can improve.

Special teams are an issue.

Glad you can admit the obvious.

For me the biggest mistake that GG made all season long IMO was the use of the d-men on the PP. Having Brodie anchoring PP1 and Gio & Hamilton on PP2 was idiotic and took way too much time to change up.

I still don't really like the diamond system on the PK either - think it gives up too many chances .

Ya think? But why do you think it took Gulutzan the better part of 40 games to figure that out?

But at 5v5 the coaching of this team isn't that bad, and even though people don't like the "style" of the system it doesn't prevent the players from succeeding in their roles or and doesn't "limit" their strengths as much as some on here like to think. This isn't some 90s New Jersey Devils or Dave Tippett trapping defensive system.

No, its just a predictable crap strategy where the Flames try and throw a lot of low quality shots toward the net with no real chance to score. It's Corsi hockey more than effective hockey.

There is nothing in this system that says the dmen have to pass back and forth and can't carry the puck. They just want to break out as a team - which doesn't limit the d-men from carrying the puck up the ice - it limits the stretch passes.

Riiiiiight. There's nothing in the system that prevents them from doing it, they just naturally do it against all instinct and reason. They just want to break out as a team! Oh the unity and camaraderie they are showing! It is such an inspired plan, allowing the defensive to team to get back into position and limit our ability to leverage odd man rushes. We should all be so impressed that this team is so tight knit that they have to do everything as a five man unit. I wonder if five Flames players head to the restroom together when they go for drinks after the game? Would be the ultimate show of unity and would prove there is nothing like this in the game plan.

The d-men are still fully engaged in the offensive zone. Hamilton is 3rd in the league in shots by a d-man, Giordano is 13th, Hamonic & Brodie are both in the top 80.

In terms of scoring chances Hamilton is 5th, Giordano is 11th, Brodie 61st, Hamonic 87th. Our top 4 d-man are once again all in the top 90 of league d-men at 5v5.

Our defensemen rarely come off the points and are usually stapled within 5-10 feet of the line. If a defenseman goes in deeper than the top of the circles, it is for a very short time and the rush is usually quickly abandoned. As far as scoring chances, of course our defensemen are going to generating a lot. The Flames garbage system has them cycle a bit, run the puck up the wall, and then have the defenseman pound it toward the net. They rarely have any quality scoring chances, but boy, do they pile up the shots that keep the fancy stats guys walking around with boners.

Just because the system doesn't have them rushing end to end doesn't mean it limits them from being engaged in the offense of this team.

Yeah, that would just be limiting the greatest strengths of the players in question. I mean, what is wrong with that?

"Johnson, I know you're a rocket scientist and we hired you away from NASA, but we think you could be a great contributor in the mailroom. Now no arguments, be a team player, and contribute the best way possible!"

In terms of not using his skill guys at Forward it's been shown that if anything he plays his top 6 forwards more than the other average teams do - somebody else proved that with some of the TOI metrics.

He also puts them in positions that put the team in the best position to succeed. Monahan & Bennett lines get most of their time starting in the offensive zone against other teams 2nd and 3rd lines. Backlund's line gets all the tough matchups and defensive zone starts. The 4th line pretty much plays exclusively against other teams 4th lines.

And as I mentioned earlier, ice time does not equate to proper use of the talent at his disposal. It doesn't matter who ineffective a line is, Gulutzan just continues to roll the same lines and hopes for lightning in a bottle. He keeps doing the same stupid things with the belief that there is some mean to regress to, when there is no mean when it comes to group dynamics.

I agree he does play the 4th line too much in the 3rd period at times but even then the Flames have trailed for 955 minutes this year (12th in the league). Our 4th line has played about 168 of those minutes or 17.5% of them.

To compare the first line plays about 31% of those minutes, 2nd line about 27%, and the 3rd line about 25% of those minutes. So really the 4th line's role when we are trailing isn't that big.

The 4th line is so bad it should never see the ice. That is the point. They are good at nothing, but they still continue to get ice time, and at key moments in the game.

I agree that there is times when we are trailing in the 3rd with 10 minutes left that they shouldn't see the ice, and it also annoys the crap out of me when they throw the 4th line out there after we score a goal (especially on the road) but overall the 4th line gets low leverage situations.

Low leverage situations, that routinely cause a major shift in momentum and change the flow of the game.

The style may not have generated the results we want, and it may not be as attractive as fans would like, but it hasn't hampered our top forwards from being productive, and it hasn't stopped our d-men from generating chances and getting involved in team offense.

That doesn't pass the eye test. Stop using a spreadsheet and watch the actual hockey on the ice. Close the lid on the laptop and keep your eyes on the game. Our kung fu is weak, as indicated by the standings. 18th place in the NHL as of this morning. 22nd in goals scored. 16th in goals against. 20th in goal differential. We don't generate the offense required. We don't have the defense to hang with the big boys. We get scored on more than we score. Oh, but those fancy stat numbers that our garbage system generates! The spreadsheet crowd is happy. People who actually watch the games hate it, but those who have their nose buried in Excel think its marvelous! This is the worst hockey this team has played since the young guys era, which makes it the second worst hockey in the history of the franchise. But it is acceptable because of some made up stats.

I also think that if they find an upgrade at coach then GG should be gone but IMO it needs to be a true upgrade. Don’t fire him if you’re just going to bring in another “Glen Gulutzan” type hire. Go get either a guy that is a proven winner (Sutter, Quenneville) or a guy that was more of a no brainer heralded by all as a great hockey mind type (Cooper). Change just to change it up would be a step back at this point IMO.

Keeping Gulutzan would be a disaster. Treliving could address the winger issue, but it wouldn't matter. Gulutzan's systems are a failure. They have been a failure every where he has surfaced. He is a loser. Period. Sure, he's a nice guy and has swell hair, but he is a loser who doesn't know how to coach at the NHL level. He might make a good assistant coach, but I even doubt that. His systems are moronic and play against the flow of the game, which is counter to the way the game is being played. If it were working I would say more power to him and support him to be a revolutionary thinker. But when it fails, game-after-game, and he does nothing to alter the system, well that makes him a fool and the Flames bigger fools for continuing to employ him.

[kukkudo]

At the end of the day Treliving added key pieces that were missing top 4 d (Hamonic) and Starter (Smith). Those two moves should of made them go from a 94 point team to easily a 100 point team. I thought this team would be sitting comfortably in a top 3 division spot this year and I believe management thought the same.

I believe with a new coach (AV, Quenneville, Sutter) new assistants and adding a top 6 forward the team will be a 100 point team next year. Next year is going to be interesting because if the Oilers turn it around and Vegas plays decent and the California teams stay consistent its going to be a dog fight.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by New Era

Our defensemen rarely come off the points and are usually stapled within 5-10 feet of the line. If a defenseman goes in deeper than the top of the circles, it is for a very short time and the rush is usually quickly abandoned. As far as scoring chances, of course our defensemen are going to generating a lot. The Flames garbage system has them cycle a bit, run the puck up the wall, and then have the defenseman pound it toward the net. They rarely have any quality scoring chances, but boy, do they pile up the shots that keep the fancy stats guys walking around with boners.

You clearly have a bias when watching the games.

Hamilton leads the league in goals by a d-man. Giordano is on pace for 15 goals which would be the second highest total of his career. Brodie is on pace for 5 goals which is right inline with his career norm. They generate quality scoring chances, and it's proven since the offensive d-men are contributing on the scoresheet there is no argument against that.

The 4th line is so bad it should never see the ice. That is the point. They are good at nothing, but they still continue to get ice time, and at key moments in the game.

Low leverage situations, that routinely cause a major shift in momentum and change the flow of the game.

Our bottom 6 isn't very good, and really the problem is the 3rd line. That's more of a Treliving problem than a GG problem.

Honestly the 4th line gets #### on because they are overpaid, and too old for a 4th line in the NHL but in reality they aren't the reason we lose games.

Stajan is a positive player. His 10 points at ES are in line with most other 4th liners, and he's actually still quite stout defensively. He's only been on the ice for 12 GA, and 16 GF. They are in the black for this team.

The 4th line does get turn-styled the odd time they get stuck out on the ice against other teams top 6 (as do most team's 4 lines) but when they play against other teams bottom 6 they usually come out ahead.

The problem with Stajan & Brouwer is more about their usage on Special Teams - which is the biggest problem this coaching staff has. Way too much time spent on the PK, and way too much time for Brouwer on the PP.

That doesn't pass the eye test. Stop using a spreadsheet and watch the actual hockey on the ice. Close the lid on the laptop and keep your eyes on the game. Our kung fu is weak, as indicated by the standings. 18th place in the NHL as of this morning. 22nd in goals scored. 16th in goals against. 20th in goal differential. We don't generate the offense required. We don't have the defense to hang with the big boys.

I've watched 95% of the Flames games this season start to finish. I use the stats to help validate what I am watching. I don't just sit there and get pissed off because the end result isn't always what we want.

The team has been mediocre this season but my personal opinion is there is more to it than "Bleh it's all the coaches fault fire him and we'd be in first place".

The team's depth is horrendous at forward with Bennett (& Jankowski at times) being the only consistent threat to score or contribute any sort of offense in our bottom 6.

Defensively Brodie has been a tire fire all season and I bet if you dug into the numbers the 2nd pairing is a big part of the YoY decline defensively - he wasn't nearly this bad under GG last season either so I'm not sure that is just a coaching thing. Guy needs to get some confidence back (different coach may help with that).

The scoring problem IMO has a lot to do with shooting talent. They generate a lot of chances but have missed the net over 1000 times, do a piss poor job on actually converting chances. If they converted at the same shooting percentage as last year they'd have 20 more goals this season.

In the end though the biggest problems are still special teams. We have the 24th ranked PP, and the 12th ranked PK. With the PK also being very inconsistent IMO. The PP along is probably a reason this coaching staff needs to change in some way. We have the 4th most PP opportunities in the league and if this team could actually convert this season probably gets looked on much more favorably.

Keeping Gulutzan would be a disaster. Treliving could address the winger issue, but it wouldn't matter. Gulutzan's systems are a failure. They have been a failure every where he has surfaced. He is a loser. Period. Sure, he's a nice guy and has swell hair, but he is a loser who doesn't know how to coach at the NHL level. He might make a good assistant coach, but I even doubt that. His systems are moronic and play against the flow of the game, which is counter to the way the game is being played. If it were working I would say more power to him and support him to be a revolutionary thinker. But when it fails, game-after-game, and he does nothing to alter the system, well that makes him a fool and the Flames bigger fools for continuing to employ him.

You clearly aren't biased at all and have a very clear and level headed opinion of this coaching staff. We should all try to analyze the game with the same thoughtfulness that you do.

My point is that we could do a lot worse than GG as a coach, and if they make the change then Treliving better be damn sure it's an improvement.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by New Era

Glad you can admit the obvious.



Ya think? But why do you think it took Gulutzan the better part of 40 games to figure that out?

Closer to 120 games, actually. Hamilton received very little PP1 time at any point last year.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Closer to 120 games, actually. Hamilton received very little PP1 time at any point last year.

I really don't get why this organization as a whole seems hesitant to trust Hamilton. Hartley didn't trust him, now GG doesn't seem to trust him. I wonder if it's something that is festering higher up the org.

And honestly the PP struggles themselves probably are a reason that this coaching staff gets canned if we miss the playoffs.

We have 42 PPGs on 240 opportunities (17.5%) - that is abysmal and ranks 24th in the league.

Middle of the pack in the NHL is about 20.5%.

If we were even average on the PP that is 8 more goals this season - which is pretty substantial and probably means we are in a playoff spot. And it's the epitome of our Home/Road splits. Home record is bad - rank 29th on the PP at home. Road record is good - rank 12th on the PP on the road.

[Locke]

I cant wait to see what Ol' Gul has in store for us tonight.

[Infinit47]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

My point is that we could do a lot worse than GG as a coach, and if they make the change then Treliving better be damn sure it's an improvement.

This is the exact wrong attitude, and is what people call managment by fear. If you think GG is not the right guy you replace him, period. Fearing the next coach may be worse just prolongs making a decision that needs to be made.

Think of it this way. If we miss the playoffs this year, then how much worse could it get? It doesn't matter if you miss by 1 point or 50. Missing is missing.

[Red]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

You clearly have a bias when watching the games.

Hamilton leads the league in goals by a d-man. Giordano is on pace for 15 goals which would be the second highest total of his career. Brodie is on pace for 5 goals which is right inline with his career norm. They generate quality scoring chances, and it's proven since the offensive d-men are contributing on the scoresheet there is no argument against that.

Bull. Outside of the last few weeks these guys rarely pinched. It's desperation time so they are allowed now I guess.

As for stats.
Gio should be a 50-60p guy. He was a 60p dman before GG took over. He is on pace for a 50% point reduction.
Hamilton is not going to reach his 50 points and he should be still improving at his age. So that's another so so result.
Brodie is also not going to reach his point totals from pre-GG days. He was trending towards a 50 point D as well.

And most importantly, pinching D give the forwards more opportunity to get open and since most of the forwards are struggling to score, maybe we can connect the two to some degree as well?

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Red

Bull. Outside of the last few weeks these guys rarely pinched. It's desperation time so they are allowed now I guess.

As for stats.
Gio should be a 50-60p guy. He was a 60p dman before GG took over. He is on pace for a 50% point reduction.
Hamilton is not going to reach his 50 points and he should be still improving at his age. So that's another so so result.
Brodie is also not going to reach his point totals from pre-GG days. He was trending towards a 50 point D as well.

And most importantly, pinching D give the forwards more opportunity to get open and since most of the forwards are struggling to score, maybe we can connect the two to some degree as well?

A big part of the point decline is the abysmal PP and Giordano not playing as big a role on the PP under Gulutzan.

The ES point production the last 5 seasons is pretty consistent (pro-rated to 82 games to keep it comparable).

There are two big outliers: Giordano's season last year (down year), as well as Brodie's 15/16 season (big lift).

Giordano:
13/14: 28
14/15: 29
15/16: 29
16/17: 14
17/18: 25

Brodie:
13/14: 19
14/15: 16
15/16: 33
16/17: 16
17/18: 18

Hamilton:
14/15: 25 (Boston)
15/16: 22
16/17: 33
17/18: 28

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

The team's depth is horrendous at forward with Bennett (& Jankowski at times) being the only consistent threat to score or contribute any sort of offense in our bottom 6.

fyp

[redforever]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I really don't get why this organization as a whole seems hesitant to trust Hamilton. Hartley didn't trust him, now GG doesn't seem to trust him. I wonder if it's something that is festering higher up the org.

And honestly the PP struggles themselves probably are a reason that this coaching staff gets canned if we miss the playoffs.

We have 42 PPGs on 240 opportunities (17.5%) - that is abysmal and ranks 24th in the league.

Middle of the pack in the NHL is about 20.5%.

If we were even average on the PP that is 8 more goals this season - which is pretty substantial and probably means we are in a playoff spot. And it's the epitome of our Home/Road splits. Home record is bad - rank 29th on the PP at home. Road record is good - rank 12th on the PP on the road.

I have watched Hamilton when I have attended the games live. He just does not play "big" and at times, looks like a pylon out there. He plays with Gio but yet that drive and extreme desire to win exhibited by Gio does not seem to rub off on Hamilton.

No matter if he plays up to his potential or not as a defense man, none the less, he is under utilized on the PP. One thing he does have and will use if on the PP is a great shot.

Personally I would be willing to see what Hamilton could bring us up front on offence. I think we are strong enough on the back end without Hamilton.

[CliffFletcher]

Hamilton is great with the puck on his stick or putting himself in a position to get the puck on the net. Without the puck and in his own zone he often looks like Dion Phaneuf. Lots of bad decisions, blown coverages, and tripping over himself.

[UKflames]

I don't understand why everyone thinks Quenneville and AV are going to be available this summer. AV signed a contract extension in Jan 2017 and one bad season isn't going to get him fired so soon. The same with Quenneville, he has built up a lot of Stanley cup currency and missing the playoffs once isn't going to see him fired either.
Both will be in charge of their respective teams at the start of next season, the leash maybe a little shorter but they will be there.
So if those two aren't available, who do does everyone suggest is going to bring this upbeat, high tempo, score 5 goals a game brand of hockey that everyone seems to think we are due?? It certainly isn't going to be Tippet, anyone remember how boring games against the Yotes used to be.
By all means fire GG because this season hasn't been up to 'expectations' but have a decent replacement available, which at the moment I can't see one.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by UKflames

I don't understand why everyone thinks Quenneville and AV are going to be available this summer. AV signed a contract extension in Jan 2017 and one bad season isn't going to get him fired so soon. The same with Quenneville, he has built up a lot of Stanley cup currency and missing the playoffs once isn't going to see him fired either.
Both will be in charge of their respective teams at the start of next season, the leash maybe a little shorter but they will be there.
So if those two aren't available, who do does everyone suggest is going to bring this upbeat, high tempo, score 5 goals a game brand of hockey that everyone seems to think we are due?? It certainly isn't going to be Tippet, anyone remember how boring games against the Yotes used to be.
By all means fire GG because this season hasn't been up to 'expectations' but have a decent replacement available, which at the moment I can't see one.

Its not even necessarily that though.

NYR is going full re-build and maybe the coach wants to win or doesnt want to rebuild, it might be a mutual parting.

Similar to Quenneville, that Chicago team is going to have to make some changes, maybe some of those wont be to his liking.

Its not just that 'they're going to be fired' but sometimes changes just have to be made.

Not to mention, guys like AV and JQ (<- I hate spelling his name) are desirable commodities, they'll land somewhere and they'll get paid, they dont have to stay through rebuilds or lean years if they dont want to.

[kukkudo]

Originally Posted by UKflames

I don't understand why everyone thinks Quenneville and AV are going to be available this summer. AV signed a contract extension in Jan 2017 and one bad season isn't going to get him fired so soon. The same with Quenneville, he has built up a lot of Stanley cup currency and missing the playoffs once isn't going to see him fired either.
Both will be in charge of their respective teams at the start of next season, the leash maybe a little shorter but they will be there.
So if those two aren't available, who do does everyone suggest is going to bring this upbeat, high tempo, score 5 goals a game brand of hockey that everyone seems to think we are due?? It certainly isn't going to be Tippet, anyone remember how boring games against the Yotes used to be.
By all means fire GG because this season hasn't been up to 'expectations' but have a decent replacement available, which at the moment I can't see one.

Lots of rumours of him being fired around Christmas. I think with the Ranger rebuilding they may end up going a different direction. Quenneville is an interesting one cause I think the Hawks would be stupid to let him go but you never know! Candidates will pop up if some teams have a disappointing playoffs. Trotz is an example if the Caps are eliminated quick.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I really don't get why this organization as a whole seems hesitant to trust Hamilton. Hartley didn't trust him, now GG doesn't seem to trust him. I wonder if it's something that is festering higher up the org.

And honestly the PP struggles themselves probably are a reason that this coaching staff gets canned if we miss the playoffs.

We have 42 PPGs on 240 opportunities (17.5%) - that is abysmal and ranks 24th in the league.

Middle of the pack in the NHL is about 20.5%.

If we were even average on the PP that is 8 more goals this season - which is pretty substantial and probably means we are in a playoff spot. And it's the epitome of our Home/Road splits. Home record is bad - rank 29th on the PP at home. Road record is good - rank 12th on the PP on the road.

The organization isn't - Treliving traded for him.

The coaching staff doesn't trust him.

[Enoch Root]

To continue with my prior comment...

If the coaching staff doesn't trust him, it should be defensively.

What reason is there to not trust him offensively?

There is no reason whatsoever to not have him on the PP. The coaching staff is off their rocker on this one (or at least was for about 100-120 games).