I mentioned this before but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that a military/exploration vessel would have so many anxiety ridden, command questioning and mentally unstable crew members. I get that it's supposed to make them more interesting characters but it makes me question the hiring practices of the Federation.
On TNG you believed any one of the main cast members could take over command of the ship if they had to. Some less successfully than others but if I were an ensign I wouldn't worry as much as I would if Tilly suddenly sat in the chair. Even Troi had her chance and did a fine job.
I guess it helped that they built each character up over many seasons so we knew that, while they had flaws, they were all capable officers.
Oh! I completely agree!
Crusher took over once and flew into a Sun and that turned out okay.
Its like...in a way, it reminds me of 'Foundation.' Not the TV show, the books.
Because Seldon felt that the minor degradations of standards were clues to the fall of society.
I dont know Tilley. But I'll tell you what. If they do a 'Tilley has to work on a Klingon ship for a week episode' I would watch that. Especially if its directed by Frakes.
"Hi Klingons...where is Tilley?"
Nothing. But. Shoulders.
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I mentioned this before but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that a military/exploration vessel would have so many anxiety ridden, command questioning and mentally unstable crew members. I get that it's supposed to make them more interesting characters but it makes me question the hiring practices of the Federation.
On TNG you believed any one of the main cast members could take over command of the ship if they had to. Some less successfully than others but if I were an ensign I wouldn't worry as much as I would if Tilly suddenly sat in the chair. Even Troi had her chance and did a fine job.
I guess it helped that they built each character up over many seasons so we knew that, while they had flaws, they were all capable officers.
Spoiler!
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Originally Posted by timun
The fact that the Enterprise crew characters, particularly Anson Mount's 'Pike', were more interesting than the Discovery crew cardboard cut-outs characters is emblematic of the massive, massive problems of that show. Frankly it's just... dumb. It's a dumb show with terrible writing.
I look back on TOS, TNG, DS9 and yeah they had a lot of hokey moments, but they also had all these wonderful allegorical stories and morality plays. Some characters were better written than others, or more thoroughly fleshed out than others, but at least they were woven into a story wherein they were shown to be competent people. STD characters other than Burnham are pointless and stupid; their actions are irrelevant, they contribute essentially nothing to the story, they're just occupying seats on a bridge set. If they killed them all off and replaced them in the next episode it would be meaningless to the overarching story. TOS/TNG/DS9 had one-off characters who were better characterized than 90% of the main cast of STD. I feel sorry for the actors, as surely they didn't set out to be a part of something so tedious.
I re-watched a fourth-season episode of TNG relatively recently, one wherein Geordi Laforge is kidnapped by the Romulans and brainwashed into assassinating the governor of a Klingon colony fighting for independence. (A bit of an homage to The Manchurian Candidate.) At one point they discover Enterprise's cargo transporters were surreptitious used to send weapons to the rebels and the records have been expertly falsified, and Worf asks the engineers working on it "which members of the crew could have accomplished this?" Laforge says he could have, so could Data of course, and Chief O'Brien, and Lieutenant So-and-so.
Point being there were several subject matter experts on the ship, and they all could have done it. The ship was full of smart, competent people, and even this extremely difficult cover-up could have been accomplished by more than one person on the ship. We as the viewers know it was Laforge himself who did it, and it's the first clue Worf/Data have that it was Laforge because when asked for alibis: Data and the unseen Lt. What's-his-face were at their duty stations, O'Brien was with Keiko in a public place, and Laforge says he was in his quarters and has no alibi.
That story would never have happened on Discovery, because Michael Burnham is the only one who does anything anyway so of course it would have been her. Or it would have been one of the background characters with no plausible reason or explanation, and Burnham—and only Burnham—could have figured it out. (Whereas in the TNG episode it's Data who ultimately deduces that Geordi has been brainwashed, but Data wouldn't have figured it out nor stopped Geordi without Picard, Riker and Worf's help.)
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Didn't you watch the lower decks borg gag? the lower decks on the cube are just batteries. Maybeeeee borg accountants have higher station than accountants in our society though?
Is the federation a pseudo military dictatorship, run by Starfleet?
1. Starfleet and the Federation are separate entities.
2. Starfleet's command structure reports in some way to the federation council, but not directly. It's more like a single employee situation.
3. Starfleet holds the monopoly on force within federation space (and potentially within the entire alpha quadrant post dominion war.)
4. Starfleet enforces all regulations on behalf of the federation, and mediates disputes between member worlds or worlds seeking membership. Often, they do these using Starfleet regulations or codes rather than laws passed by a federation council.
5. Starfleet controls all foreign relations for the federation. There are federation ambassadors, but they are supported by the starfleet diplomatic core and are shown to by and large be sycophantic or airheaded upper class folk from member worlds. The real work gets done by starfleet, often not even diplomatic core members but by ship crew.
6. It was trivially easy for starfleet to depose the federation council on a single world before the dominion war under Leyton, and thereby take military control of the whole federation.
7. Starfleet admirals largely broker peace deals during war time with opposing bodies (Khitomer, Dominion)
8. Foreign powers seem to value starfleet admirals and starfleet command over the federation presidency. (Gowron notably)
9. Starfleet command seems to have power to assign ambassadors to planets (worf)
What does the federation council do?
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Oh and one more point, they're relentlessly and aggressively expansionist, with an insidious and lavacious culture, steadfast in their moral supremacy.
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Leyton tried to have a coup to make it a Junta. As it is it's not very different from any other military reporting to an elected body. Just that starfleet is a like a catch all for a lot of things.
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Originally Posted by Locke
Thats why Flames fans make ideal Star Trek fans. We've really been taught to embrace the self-loathing and extreme criticism.
But it's not just for a lot of things, it's a catch all for pretty much everything to do with interstellar relations and force. That means it is the only real functional organ of the federation council. And since most of Starfleet reports into a self selected chain of command with only a tenuous link at top to the elected council...
I don't know, doesn't seem like much of a democracy to me. Add to this the perceived difficulty in joining starfleet at all and the Federation presents as a sort of philosopher-king model of governance.
Oh and one more point, they're relentlessly and aggressively expansionist, with an insidious and lavacious culture, steadfast in their moral supremacy.
Starting to sound more like a religion. Planets are like "nooo, the damn Federation is back. Sally, don't answer the door this time, they really like to moralize on us!"
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But it's not just for a lot of things, it's a catch all for pretty much everything to do with interstellar relations and force. That means it is the only real functional organ of the federation council. And since most of Starfleet reports into a self selected chain of command with only a tenuous link at top to the elected council...
I don't know, doesn't seem like much of a democracy to me. Add to this the perceived difficulty in joining starfleet at all and the Federation presents as a sort of philosopher-king model of governance.
They're the only organ that we see. But yeah, it's a limitation of all the shows choosing to echo that element from TOS all though out.
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Originally Posted by Locke
Thats why Flames fans make ideal Star Trek fans. We've really been taught to embrace the self-loathing and extreme criticism.
Starting to sound more like a religion. Planets are like "nooo, the damn Federation is back. Sally, don't answer the door this time, they really like to moralize on us!"
"Excuse me sir, do you have a moment to talk about the Federation?"
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I gave Discovery 3 honest tries and I just couldnt get into it.
Its like they thought swinging for the fences was their only choice so they had to have a magic propulsion drive on a ship Captained by Jesus with Klingons being turned into humans and....it just got progressively dumber and dumber.
There are so many things wrong with it but ultimately? Its just not Star Trek.
Its just not Star Trek in anything but name and tangential relation.
I hate Disco with a passion.
Every character is flawed, except for Burnham.
And not just flawed. They're very flawed. They're all basically losers in some horrible way.
And only she can save them.
Screw Disco.
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And not just flawed. They're very flawed. They're all basically losers in some horrible way.
And only she can save them.
Screw Disco.
LOL I still have last weeks episode on my PVR, Frankly I read the story line "Michael and Tilly go undercover". And I literally said, I don't know if I can watch a Tilly centric episode, especially with her undercover.
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LOL I still have last weeks episode on my PVR, Frankly I read the story line "Michael and Tilly go undercover". And I literally said, I don't know if I can watch a Tilly centric episode, especially with her undercover.
Does she put on those glasses with the fake nose and moustache but otherwise just stay in her Starfleet Uniform?
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This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
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Is the federation a pseudo military dictatorship, run by Starfleet?
1. Starfleet and the Federation are separate entities.
2. Starfleet's command structure reports in some way to the federation council, but not directly. It's more like a single employee situation.
3. Starfleet holds the monopoly on force within federation space (and potentially within the entire alpha quadrant post dominion war.)
4. Starfleet enforces all regulations on behalf of the federation, and mediates disputes between member worlds or worlds seeking membership. Often, they do these using Starfleet regulations or codes rather than laws passed by a federation council.
5. Starfleet controls all foreign relations for the federation. There are federation ambassadors, but they are supported by the starfleet diplomatic core and are shown to by and large be sycophantic or airheaded upper class folk from member worlds. The real work gets done by starfleet, often not even diplomatic core members but by ship crew.
6. It was trivially easy for starfleet to depose the federation council on a single world before the dominion war under Leyton, and thereby take military control of the whole federation.
7. Starfleet admirals largely broker peace deals during war time with opposing bodies (Khitomer, Dominion)
8. Foreign powers seem to value starfleet admirals and starfleet command over the federation presidency. (Gowron notably)
9. Starfleet command seems to have power to assign ambassadors to planets (worf)
What does the federation council do?
I find your thoughts on this matter intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Have you any pamphlets or other literature outlining your positions?
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