2016 NHL Draft

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

with Gaudreau and Mangipane would the flames use a top 10 pick on another small winger? Haven't watched Keller but if he is thst good then maybe it is worth it. Rather have Tkachuk but notnsure he will be there at 6

Mangiapane is a good prospect, but he's not great enough to make our entire scouting staff re-think our 6th overall pick. Collectively, our small forwards might have a bit of an impact though.

I don't think our small forwards in the organization would make us choose Nylander over Keller. It's probably BPA for the most part.

[Funkhouser]

For me it is Tkachuk first, Keller second.
Statistically, Keller is almost on-par with Matthews and Kane (he nearly matched Matthews stats from one year ago when Matthews was essentially the same age). He is clearly a game breaker with a high IQ. Put him beside Bennett and you now have two #1 lines. Go and grab some decent sized RWs with average skills and we are set.

I suspect that Brown is more likely to be another Colborne than another Thornton.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Joe Sakic was taken 15th overall. Played at 190 his whole career. Steve Yzerman was taken 4th overall. Same thing.

It's not the size, it's how you use it. Who are the players with elite skills and vision? Draft them.

At 5'11", Yzerman was very much an average-sized player in the 80s.

If you want to argue for a small guy being picked high in the draft, Hawerchuk would be a better example.

[iloveicedhockey]

I don't really understand the argument that if a winger is playing well enough to warrant getting paid huge sums of money that's a bad thing. If he does and the money doesn't fit, you have a great trade chip no?

[icecube]

Originally Posted by Funkhouser

For me it is Tkachuk first, Keller second.
Statistically, Keller is almost on-par with Matthews and Kane (he nearly matched Matthews stats from one year ago when Matthews was essentially the same age). He is clearly a game breaker with a high IQ. Put him beside Bennett and you now have two #1 lines. Go and grab some decent sized RWs with average skills and we are set.

I suspect that Brown is more likely to be another Colborne than another Thornton.

He will be way better than Colborne but it would be very unlikelu he will be close to Thornton either (one of the best ever after his career is done).

I'd be okay with trading down a bit for Keller. Brown's upside is massive though. Think more Benn or Brent Burns rather than Colborne. He doesn't play like them, I merely mean in terms of impact. With his size, skating and skill combo he'd be very hard to stop. He's gonna be a 2nd line center at worst.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

At 5'11", Yzerman was very much an average-sized player in the 80s.

Based on his draft combine result, Jonathan Drouin is exactly 5'11"

Steve Yzerman appears to be an inch or even two shorter than that, and NHL.com has him at 5'10":

[VladtheImpaler]

/\
Yzerman has probably lost an inch or two of height, given aging...

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

/\
Yzerman has probably lost an inch or two of height, given aging...

Yzerman was 47 when that pic was taken. He maybe lost a centimetre in height by that age. Drouin is also slouching a bit in that pic as he puts the Tampa jersey on.

[iloveicedhockey]

Pretty sure Drouin was wearing Cuban heels to the draft.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

At 5'11", Yzerman was very much an average-sized player in the 80s.

If you want to argue for a small guy being picked high in the draft, Hawerchuk would be a better example.

Look at the top 10 scorers this year. He's an average sized player now.

[Bar-Down]

I am happy with any of Dubois, Tkachuk, Keller.

One of them will be there at #6. High end skill, vision and hockey IQ can't be taught. Players with those attributes should be valued very high.

A Keller-Bennett duo could be real nasty (in a good way).

[Enoch Root]

You can't compare guys in a picture wearing different shoes.

Regardless, guys have gotten substantially bigger since the 80s. Yzerman was not a 'small' player in his time.

Keller definitely is.

[JJ1532]

http://www.tsn.ca/matthews-still-ahe...draft-1.489187

Craig Button's mock draft, apologies if its already been posted elsewhere.

Has the Oilers taking Juolevi, Canucks taking Dubois and Tkachuk falling to us at 6.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You can't compare guys in a picture wearing different shoes.

Regardless, guys have gotten substantially bigger since the 80s. Yzerman was not a 'small' player in his time.

Keller definitely is.

Still four of the top 10 scorers this season were under 6 feet tall in Kane, Gadreau, Pavelski, and Panarin. IMO there's more small, skilled forwards now than there has been at any other time in the league as with advanced stats and metrics teams are focusing more on skilled players that can skate over measurables. Sure teams covet the total package of size and skill but in reality there are very few true elite power forwards in this league so drafting specifically for one will ultimately lead to failed picks more than not. Laine and Puljujarvi were those guys that are almost can't miss but unfortunately the draft lottery didn't work out for the Flames and Dubois and Tkachuk aren't "can't miss" guys but they look fairly safe although I question the ultimate offensive upside of both of these players as they could easily turn into Steve Bernier type big guys. I'll say it again but the Jets are the model team for drafting because they go after the most skilled players that can skate in the first rounds and I hope the Flames emulate this practice rather than putting too much stock into measurables like height/weight.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by JJ1532

http://www.tsn.ca/matthews-still-ahe...draft-1.489187

Craig Button's mock draft, apologies if its already been posted elsewhere.

Has the Oilers taking Juolevi, Canucks taking Dubois and Tkachuk falling to us at 6.

I would be down for that. Still I can't see the Oilers passing on Dubois but I suppose the player they pick here may depend on if they can accomplish some trades in advance of the draft for a defenseman which would mean RNH and/or Eberle holes to fill in the forward lineup.

[Chingas]

And Ferraro kicks off the official Matthews is the next god campaign that the media will now run with until the Leafs win a cup. Ie forever.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by iloveicedhockey

I don't really understand the argument that if a winger is playing well enough to warrant getting paid huge sums of money that's a bad thing. If he does and the money doesn't fit, you have a great trade chip no?

IMO you don't because wing is the least important position. Eberle is an example for me. Puts up good numbers, gets his 6 million and now can the Oilers trade him for what they need, a young top 3 defenceman? Nope, defencemen are way more valuable than an averaged sized soft goal scoring winger. So Eberle may be really hard to trade and is now eating up a large percentage of EDM's cap.

Phil Kessel is one of the top goal scoring wingers in the league, made 8 million and had be dumped with salary retained to get him off the cap. They got an okay return but not as much as you'd get if he was a franchise centre or top 3 dman. Again average size elite goal scoring winger and he wasn't the solution in TOR.

It's just my hockey philosophy that goal scoring wingers are one of the least valuable assets of the elite assets and often end up giving you cap problems.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I would be down for that. Still I can't see the Oilers passing on Dubois but I suppose the player they pick here may depend on if they can accomplish some trades in advance of the draft for a defenseman which would mean RNH and/or Eberle holes to fill in the forward lineup.

Chiarelli has been pretty open about looking at trading down. I think they could go for a dman but if they do they'll trade down 2-3 spots. I actually think the mock draft could work out like this but with us trading up to 4 with picks to get Tkachuk and them moving back to 6 to take their pick of the dmen.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

IMO you don't because wing is the least important position. Eberle is an example for me. Puts up good numbers, gets his 6 million and now can the Oilers trade him for what they need, a young top 3 defenceman? Nope, defencemen are way more valuable than an averaged sized soft goal scoring winger. So Eberle may be really hard to trade and is now eating up a large percentage of EDM's cap.

Phil Kessel is one of the top goal scoring wingers in the league, made 8 million and had be dumped with salary retained to get him off the cap. They got an okay return but not as much as you'd get if he was a franchise centre of top 3 dman. Again average size elite goal scoring winger and he wasn't the solution in TOR.

It's just my hockey philosophy that goal scoring wingers are one of the least valuable assets of the elite assets and often end up giving you cap problems.

Eberle? Kessel?

this is where i think you are subtly adjusting your argument to suit you narrative.... Eberle's contract sucked off the hop and is a case of Oilers Oilering... Kessel was a malcontent who cashed in early in his career.

How much do you think Johnny Hockey would fetch on the open market? or Drouin? or Kucherov?

The draft is a crapshoot, even for big players and defensemen, there is no guarantee they make it either.

You can make the argument that wingers are the most over rated player group when you cherry pick wingers that are over rated... Your argument does not hold much water when you actually substitute wingers that have similar value to #2 DMen...

Is a franchise DMan more valuable than franchise winger? I can see arguments both ways... but the discussion starts when you at least make an attempt for an apples to apples discussion.

[iloveicedhockey]

Agree with above, those arguments fit your narrative but don't really represent the real issue with those deals, which was terrible management, overpayment and malcontent with the player.

If you manage assets correctly then I don't see an issue.

You can add Crosby and karlsson to this year's top ten scorers under 6ft too. Not that I'm saying they're physically similar but size clearly isn't a prerequisite to being a home run at the draft.

BPA all the way for me and if you have a combination of c, wing and d ranked the same then you choose the dman or centre because I agree, those guys are of more value to a team.