Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote, Formenton charged with sexual assault

[MissTeeks]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1750254933268443409

[Lanny'sDaMan]

I'm not gonna speculate on player names or anything but I am gonna say excellent work by Rick Westhead to bring this to light. Without his investigative journalism none of this would have been known and that poor woman might never have received the justice she is so very due.

[VilleN]

IMO I think people are getting a little carried away with calling out 'victim blamers'. I will tell my daughter that there are predators out there, bad men out there who will lie to her, who will try and convince her to do things she doesn't want to do. Guys who will take advantage of her when she's vulnerable. I will try my best to tell her how to avoid these situations, which will include telling her that getting blackout drunk at a bar will put her at increased risk (not saying that is what happened in the case). I don't think anyone would disagree with me telling these things to my daughter. I don't think it is blaming the victim to point out safer behaviour. Should women have the freedom to go to a bar, let their hair down, and drink as much as they want? Absolutely 100%. Can that be a dangerous thing for them to do? Unfortunately, yes it can. Is it their fault if they do this and something awful happens? Definitely not. I will also tell my son to respect women, to understand a woman's experience. Often as men it is easy to not understand what it would feel like to be fearful in a sexual encounter, to 'appear' to be consenting because you're afraid of what happens if you don't. It's a good practice to spend some time as a man imagining what that would be like. To go on a date with someone you barely know, who has the physical power to hurt or kill you - I can only imagine what that is like.

Another thing that I think continually gets glossed over in all of these situations is the abuse of alcohol. As much as we need to educate about consent, we need to educate about alcohol. I guarantee this doesn't happen at a social gathering where all parties are sober. There are crazy statistics about alcohol and sexual assault. Alcohol is a hard drug, and a lot of awful, avoidable things happen because it gets abused. Alcohol often unchains demons that are lying dormant in people.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Willi Plett

I’ve been waiting for this issue to come to a head. I felt Dubes play alone was a portrayal of a mental struggle and we all knew this was coming.

Many have commented on the Flames and whether they should have said it was for mental health. I would suggest that the Flames are at this time legally bound to say whatever the player, the players agent, or the players lawyer has stated. Privacy law, the CBA, and law in general (read libel) prevents them from doing any different.

Even if a player was accused #1 and later deemed (let’s call it) the most guilty by a court of law, an NHL team would not be able to take any action without proof of guilt.

When there is an ongoing criminal investigation, a civil suit, and a hockey Canada appeal ongoing involving multiple players, no individual NHL team could unilaterally take upon there own investigation without compromising the rest and potentially creating their own legal issues.

Up until now, no player has stepped out and made an admission of guilt to anyone’s knowledge. Given the hockey Canada appeal, one could assume that at minimum, some players did something that will be deemed a violation of Hockey Canadas code of conduct. Given that London policy are now planning to charge 5 players, there is a future possibility of criminal guilt.

Still, coming back to Dube and mental health, the Flames do not have grounds to say anything other than the exact reason the player has stated. Further, if he was guilty in any way, by this point I would think his mental health would leave him in a place where playing to his potential or playing at all was not possible. On the flip, even if he is only associated to it because he was the captain, with all the questions and what is about to unfold, I don’t know about you but it would be eating me alive.

Whatever the case, Dube already knows the facts. Already knows what’s coming. There will be more questioning, court appearance and statements even if it is the minimum of "knows facts". And the media questioning forthcoming? Yikes.

Stating Im leaving for mental health reasons is legitimate and unquestionable by the Flames.

It seems like the Flames provided the most specific commentary (for mental health) while the Flyers and Devils have both basically said the players are on leave, we have no additional comment at this time. I've seen reactions online that the Flames are being complicit or masking this as a mental health issue because it is markedly different from what the legal team of the other teams have had them put out.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Locke

The long-lost, often overlooked Tkachuk cousin...Boris!

He couldn't have done it. He was too busy chasing moose and squirrel.

[jmerkel3d]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

The WHO argues that 1/3 women experience sexual assault in their lives.

This number suggests that it is not a small percentage of men. If you are careful, the women in your life might tell you their experience. I often think about this article with respect to the the large gray area that exists.





https://medium.com/the-hairpin/stori...s-bf04e46c3fb6

Thank you for sharing this article, it sheds a lot of light on many situations that we encounter about women who deal with this in the workplace or at school or other small communities where men can exert power. It's critically important that there is more awareness around this subject because ultimately we all need to be better to help our women.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Huh? What are you saying here? Because you didn't know, the Flames (and others) couldn't?

That there was no indication it was happening today. Or this week, even.

You’re suggesting that because someone on a message board heard Dube was going to be implicated that it’s a foregone conclusion that the Flames already knew. I’m not sure how that’s different.

You would think if that many people knew that it would have been leaked somewhere, no? Especially if we were already at the point of random people knowing?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

Pretty ####ed up about society that we teach women this as opposed to teaching about consent (the presence of a yes, not just the absence of a no) and men not to engage in SA and feel entitled to other's bodies' though.

You can teach men not to feel entitled to others’ bodies and it will still happen. We teach men they shouldn’t rob people at knife-point, and violent robberies still happen. Some people are predators who deliberately use violence or coercion to take what they want. That’s not going to change with educational messaging.

And of course we have been teaching men about consent and sexual assault for a couple decades now. I’d wager all of the hockey players who are being charged in this have had some kind of consent training.

Having said that, there’s clearly someting pretty messed up with elite men’s sport culture and its norms around entitlement and sexual aggression. If anything good comes of this, it will be that it serves as a sobering lesson to younger hockey players that this kind of predatory pursuit of drunken women can ruin lives.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

It seems like the Flames provided the most specific commentary (for mental health) while the Flyers and Devils have both basically said the players are on leave, we have no additional comment at this time. I've seen reactions online that the Flames are being complicit or masking this as a mental health issue because it is markedly different from what the legal team of the other teams have had them put out.

Different teams have different policies, and they use different legal counsellors. If I am not mistaken, Dube was also the first to take leave, and this may have prompted how other teams decided to handle their public statements.

But, anyone suggesting that the Flames are "masking" the seriousness of Dube's potential legal troubles, or that they are somehow "complicit" because of the statement they produced are being reactionary. There are so many things that we don't know about each situation which makes it impossible to form clear judgments about team motivations. Especially from something so opaque as this:

Originally Posted by The Calgary Flames

"Dillon Dube has been granted an indefinite leave of absence from the team while he attends to his mental health. Dillon is under the care of health professionals, and we request that Dillon’s privacy is respected during this period."

[devo22]

Flames were also the first to put out a statement, two days before the Flyers and another day before the Devils. Doesn't mean the Flames' statement influenced their wording, but you never know.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

That there was no indication it was happening today. Or this week, even.

You’re suggesting that because someone on a message board heard Dube was going to be implicated that it’s a foregone conclusion that the Flames already knew. I’m not sure how that’s different.

You would think if that many people knew that it would have been leaked somewhere, no? Especially if we were already at the point of random people knowing?

I mean, you yourself said that you heard Dube and Hart's name in the rumours for a while now?

What I'm saying is that if CP members were confident in their information, it would be naive to think the Flames wouldn't have similar or better information on the matter.

And again, I'm not saying this means the Flames are at fault - I am responding to another poster on whether or not the Flames were likely to know charges were imminent. I'm not saying the Flames are masking anything here.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

He couldn't have done it. He was too busy chasing moose and squirrel.

He knows where his bread is buttered.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

I'm speculating, but I'd be very surprised if that is true. My money would be on NHL player contracts all containing similar boilerplate which would include not only termination provisions (as it would be unfair if different clubs or even players operated under different termination provisions) but also a governing law clause, all nominating the same place (and my money would be on New York).

I haven't got the latest CBA handy, but the 2013 CBA includes the prescribed form of a Standard Player's Contract, which may not be altered by any team or player except to fill in dates and dollar amounts. I didn't see any governing law clause in that.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You can teach men not to feel entitled to others’ bodies and it will still happen. We teach men they shouldn’t rob people at knife-point, and violent robberies still happen. Some people are predators who deliberately use violence or coercion to take what they want. That’s not going to change with educational messaging.

Having said that, there’s clearly someting pretty messed up with elite men’s sport culture and its norms around entitlement and sexual aggression. If anything good comes of this, it will be that it serves as a sobering lesson to younger hockey players that this kind of predatory pursuit of drunken women can ruin lives.

I disagree.

The failure here is that there was a group of men who decided to commit sexual assault (allegedly). Educational messaging should tell at least one of those in the group to intervene and stop things before it became a criminal act. In my mind, this is abhorrent not because a single individual decided to rape someone, but because a group of men engaged in the act and not one of them said "hey, maybe this is a bad idea."

Messaging is not only about personal responsibility, but intervening when you see something wrong. More education WILL reduce things like this. The solitary predators may never go away, but if everyone is watching out for this #### wherever they are, those predators will lose opportunities to commit these crimes.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I mean, you yourself said that you heard Dube and Hart's name in the rumours for a while now?

What I'm saying is that if CP members were confident in their information, it would be naive to think the Flames wouldn't have similar or better information on the matter.

And again, I'm not saying this means the Flames are at fault - I am responding to another poster on whether or not the Flames were likely to know charges were imminent.

Why would it be naive?

Honestly, I’m not trying to argue, I truly don’t understand. Walk me through why you believe the Flames must have known charges were imminent and, if it’s because someone random (no offence to the poster) heard Dube and Hart were going to be implicated, why this was breaking news with zero public indication anywhere that charges were imminent (aside from after the fact with people saying “oh, I knew”).

I don’t see how this could be both so well known that the Flames must have known, but such a well kept secret that nobody said a word about it.

[dissentowner]

I think we need to keep the pitchforks at bay here until we know more. Dragging everybody through the mud when we have so little details isn't fair.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I'll be surprised if those goes to trial. It will be a very difficult case for the crown to 'win', but going to trial in itself would almost certainly be a major loss for each of the defendants, regardless of the outcome. So I'd expect plea bargain(s), with terms that will outrage most people (though the sentence from a guilty verdict would likely outrage us, too).

Hard to judge the difficulty in "winning" without knowing the extent of the evidence. I expect some of the players who where there but not actively involved have come forward. But that's just a guess.

[Philly06Cup]

Things I like:

Empathy for the victims. Recognizing that people have been seriously hurt, and helping them heal. Recognizing that our society needs to change systemic misogynistic values, or else these behaviours will continue in the future. Opening up more conversations about consent; more conversations about teaching young boys about respecting girls.

Things I don't like:

Anger! Rage! ####ty people are the worst! Let's punish all ####ty people! Vengeful Righteousness!

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

What was Perry's contract terminated for? If you know, you're the only one here who does.

This isn't even an apples-to-oranges comparison. You're comparing a possible rotten apple with something in a mystery box, which may or may not even be a fruit.

That's fair, but it also doesn't seem likely to me that Perry did something way worse than a gang rape, simply because the number of things that are worse is pretty small.

More important is probably that it's hard for an employer to prove something like that when the police closed their investigation without laying charges.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I believe there was an investigation before this, but that all involved were cleared of any wrongdoing.

London police investigated a complaint by the victim in February 2019. The lawsuit came in 2022. Hard to fathom that the investigation was closed so quickly considering the seriousness of the allegation, the number of potential witnesses and persons of interest concerned and the amount of relevant potential evidence.