[Rumour] Friedman: Flames and Hanifin have made progress on contract extension

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Tough to even claim southern Alberta. I have lived in Calgary for more than 20 years but grew up in Medicine Hat and that is an Oilers town. Being 40 I was a very young child when the Oilers were winning cups and the Flames won theirs. Ultimately the Gretzky era engulfed all of Alberta outside of Calgary.

Maybe Lethbridge is a Flames town? I think most of AB and SK is Oil country outside of our great city

Oh well then pretty much might just be Calgary then lol.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Clearly he means everyone who cares about the team. I tend to agree I can’t find anyone I know who likes this team outside this board who does not think the Flames are doomed and need to blow it up

Yes, but that’s exactly the point I made to begin with.

The Flames just don’t care about the hardcore fans, they care about the casual fans as well. They care about market appeal.

They’re not idiots. They understand the market and it seems pretty evident that they’re more comfortable with a reliable 16,000 in the stands (let’s say) and a relatively competitive team year to year, than they are 12,000 on a rebuilding team for who knows how long. I’m not saying that’s what I would do but their direction is understandable. There’s a reason why the Flames have never truly’rebuilt’ and there’s a reason why they only have had one top five pick ever. I don’t know all their reasons but I suspect, strongly, is because they understand the market. They understand how much they can charge for tickets, boxes, beers, merch, all of it. And they probably have a good idea of what missing the playoffs for 5-8 years means as well.

[Ashasx]

12,000 on a rebuilding team? Like in 2014? 2016?

I just don't understand this perspective. Attendance hasn't been this bad for this team since the early 00s.

Fans will show up when you give them something to be excited for.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

12,000 on a rebuilding team? Like in 2014? 2016?

I just don't understand this perspective. Attendance hasn't been this bad for this team since the early 00s.

Fans will show up when you give them something to be excited for.

TOfan is underselling how competitive Edward Murrays is. He is cutthroat in the business world. If it was all about making money then the Flames would operate under an internal cap but they don't and Murray is happy to spend to the upper limit. Sports franchises are long term investments and the Flames ownership group has done well.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

12,000 on a rebuilding team? Like in 2014? 2016?

I just don't understand this perspective. Attendance hasn't been this bad for this team since the early 00s.

Fans will show up when you give them something to be excited for.

Inflation. Cost of housing. How much disposable income do you think people have today compared to 2014-16?

Also take note that the first glimpse the Flames had that they could cut short their rebuild, they did. I bet when Treliving got the job he probably thought he had 2-3 years of stockpiling picks and prospects. When the Flames unexpectedly made the playoffs and won a round, mandate changed. I bet.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Yes, but that’s exactly the point I made to begin with.

The Flames just don’t care about the hardcore fans, they care about the casual fans as well. They care about market appeal.

They’re not idiots. They understand the market and it seems pretty evident that they’re more comfortable with a reliable 16,000 in the stands (let’s say) and a relatively competitive team year to year, than they are 12,000 on a rebuilding team for who knows how long. I’m not saying that’s what I would do but their direction is understandable. There’s a reason why the Flames have never truly’rebuilt’ and there’s a reason why they only have had one top five pick ever. I don’t know all their reasons but I suspect, strongly, is because they understand the market. They understand how much they can charge for tickets, boxes, beers, merch, all of it. And they probably have a good idea of what missing the playoffs for 5-8 years means as well.

Do teams like Ottawa, New Jersey, and Anaheim have a larger or more loyal fanbase than Calgary?

I don’t doubt that the financials in Calgary will look bad with a prolonged period outside the playoffs. But I don’t see any reason to believe they’ll look worse than they do for other small and mid-market franchises who have made the strategic decision to rebuild.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Bonded

TOfan is underselling how competitive Edward Murrays is. He is cutthroat in the business world. If it was all about making money then the Flames would operate under an internal cap but they don't and Murray is happy to spend to the upper limit. Sports franchises are long term investments and the Flames ownership group has done well.

Spending to the cap doesn’t mean much. That’s the participation medal for NHL ownership. Someone did the homework a while back but it was something along the lines of 90% of teams spend to the cap and an additional 5% are within $2M of it. Basically there are 2-3 teams well below the cap and one of them player in an arena with 3000 seats.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Inflation. Cost of housing. How much disposable income do you think people have today compared to 2014-16?

Also take note that the first glimpse the Flames had that they could cut short their rebuild, they did. I bet when Treliving got the job he probably thought he had 2-3 years of stockpiling picks and prospects. When the Flames unexpectedly made the playoffs and won a round, mandate changed. I bet.

Well I don't know exactly how the economy compares today versus 2014, but commodity prices dropped in October 2014 and this city took heavy losses on the jobs side of things.

And trying to shortcut the rebuild with signings like Brouwer, Neal, and trades like Hamonic is exactly why the Flames were unable to build a consistently competitive team that made the playoffs every year. Instead we were subject to one year in, one year out, on repeat.

That is the Flames MO. Take shortcuts wherever and whenever possible.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Well I don't know exactly how the economy compares today versus 2014, but commodity prices dropped in October 2014 and this city took heavy losses on the jobs side of things.

And trying to shortcut the rebuild with signings like Brouwer, Neal, and trades like Hamonic is exactly why the Flames were unable to build a consistently competitive team that made the playoffs every year. Instead we were subject to one year in, one year out, on repeat.

That is the Flames MO. Take shortcuts wherever and whenever possible.

I don’t disagree.

Again, I’m not an economist so I don’t know how things stack up today vs 2014. That said, Calgary isn’t the only market that is seeing a drop in attendance. I think I saw daily faceoff post that Montreal, Vancouver,Edmonton, Winnipeg, and Calgary 5 out of 7 Canadian teams) are undersold this season.

[Bonded]

I can't quote TOfan at all but that is my point. Most owners aren't that concerned about day to day to cash flow as long as the asset value improves. Obviously the ideal situation is that the asset value grows and they make money but even if the Flames are losing 10 million dollars per year like the Coyotes that is .35% of Edwards personal net worth and 1.15% of the franchise value of the Flames.
I don't think they are doing the math that a competitive team keeps 16,000 fans in the seats versus 12,000. The simpler answer is that Edwards likes to win and hates to condone losing.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Bonded

I can't quote TOfan at all but that is my point. Most owners aren't that concerned about day to day to cash flow as long as the asset value improves. Obviously the ideal situation is that the asset value grows and they make money but even if the Flames are losing 10 million dollars per year like the Coyotes that is .35% of Edwards personal net worth and 1.15% of the franchise value of the Flames.
I don't think they are doing the math that a competitive team keeps 16,000 fans in the seats versus 12,000. The simpler answer is that Edwards likes to win and hates to condone losing.

That’s a good point.

For the record, I would welcome a rebuild but I don’t think it’s in the cards.

This team is hard to watch right now.

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by TOfan

That’s a good point.

For the record, I would welcome a rebuild but I don’t think it’s in the cards.

This team is hard to watch right now.

Oh it's in the cards for sure. Edward's is holding 7-2 and bluffing by betting on this team. Edward's is the fish that other players (teams) love to play against. Just fold the hand and get some new cards

[RobotTalk]

I don't think the Flames WANT to go into a rebuild but looking at their personnel, contract structure, prospect pipeline, and on-ice results across 1+ season and two head coaches I don't see how they can escape one.

We're trending towards progressively worse finishes over the next few years while coming up against the cap - we don't really have a way to escape a rebuild and by rebuild I mean finishing poorly/drafting high and losing top players (Hanafin/Lindholm/Zadorov/Tanev/Mangiapane/Andersson/Sharangovich/Duehr are all headed to UFA in the next two seasons).

This team will look vastly different 3 seasons from now - hopefully Conroy starts restocking the prospect pipeline so we can start trending upwards by then instead of ongoing mediocrity.

[getbak]

Pretty much every team that has ever gone into a rebuild has done so against its will. You get dragged into it kicking and screaming.

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

Oh it's in the cards for sure. Edward's is holding 7-2 and bluffing by betting on this team. Edward's is the fish that other players (teams) love to play against. Just fold the hand and get some new cards

That's not an option. Once you have your cards, you're committed to them and the only way you can get different ones is to convince someone to trade some of theirs for some of yours.

[Shazam]

There's a lot more people in Calgary now. Filling the arena isn't going to be a problem versus, say, the Young Guns time.

[the-rasta-masta]

There are a few things at play here. The Kylington situation has made Hanifin much more important to the team and less expendable.

Flames are confident an 8 year extension at $7.3AAV is where they expect the middle ground contract to fall if Hanifin re-signs, and there is legitimate interest in signing and staying from Hanifin. If that was agreed to, there would still be opportunity to move him in the future to some sort of 10-15 team list, a full NMC doesn't seem like an ask from Hanifin's side since he recognizes that limits chances of him moving if the team isn't winning.

There is also some gamesmanship being played here with media talking about talks being close, in an attempt to generate higher offers now that other teams know there is a realistic chance that he stays. I anticipate the chips will fall and this will all be resolved, one way or another, within the next 3 weeks.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by the-rasta-masta

There are a few things at play here. The Kylington situation has made Hanifin much more important to the team and less expendable.

Flames are confident an 8 year extension at $7.3AAV is where they expect the middle ground contract to fall if Hanifin re-signs, and there is legitimate interest in signing and staying from Hanifin. If that was agreed to, there would still be opportunity to move him in the future to some sort of 10-15 team list, a full NMC doesn't seem like an ask from Hanifin's side since he recognizes that limits chances of him moving if the team isn't winning.

There is also some gamesmanship being played here with media talking about talks being close, in an attempt to generate higher offers now that other teams know there is a realistic chance that he stays. I anticipate the chips will fall and this will all be resolved, one way or another, within the next 3 weeks.

Love the real OJ

[howard_the_duck]

I'm not in at $7.3M, but the logic re: Kylington ^^ makes sense.

[Saqe]

So is Lindholm gone then if Hanifin gets signed?

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Do teams like Ottawa, New Jersey, and Anaheim have a larger or more loyal fanbase than Calgary?

I don’t doubt that the financials in Calgary will look bad with a prolonged period outside the playoffs. But I don’t see any reason to believe they’ll look worse than they do for other small and mid-market franchises who have made the strategic decision to rebuild.

I don’t think so. I think it’s pretty hard to say whose fan base would be larger or more loyal.

Did those teams make a strategic/intentional decision, or is that just where they ended up after trying to be competitive, Specifically Ottawa? It was not that long ago they were swinging for the fences with a Matt Duschene trade.

I’ll say it is probably easier for teams like New Jersey and Anaheim to rebuild because their fan bases are likely made up of more casual fans than the hardcore fan base. ‘The Ducks/Devils are garbage? Oh well, I’ll go to the Angels, Dodgers, Rams, Lakers, Clippers / Giants, Jets, Knick, Nets, Yankees, Mets game. Let me know when they’re good again and I’ll start buying tickets.’

Different markets have different extenuating factors that affect a team’s financial outlook.