Post Mortem : What happens now?

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Tkachuk also outscored many of those players. Lindholm was just voted the 2nd best defensive forward in the game.

Tkachuk, Gaudreau, and Lindholm could have easily been top 3 picks with hindsight....Tkachuk and Lindholm were high as it is

The goalie was voted the 2nd best goalie in the league this season, had a rough playoff though I will admit.

Bottom line is the Flames have the top end talent (assuming they come back)

Top end talent to do what? I want to clarify what you mean before responding.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CGY12

Top end talent to do what? I want to clarify what you mean before responding.

I’m betting top end talent to go farther in the POs. Look - Edmonton has top end talent but it’s taken them years to get to a kind of weird final 4 exit. Colorado has top end talent but they haven’t progressed far until this year. Calgary has equivalent top end talent to those teams. Gaudreau when on is as talented and creative as any player and Tkachuk is just a unique player.

Edit: top not flop

[blender]

This argument that Calgary doesn't have top-end talent is laughable. The team is full of talent. I don't know what some people thought they were watching this season, but that is a very good hockey team, certainly well above average in the league.

[sketchyt]

Originally Posted by blender

This argument that Calgary doesn't have top-end talent is laughable. The team is full of talent. I don't know what some people thought they were watching this season, but that is a very good hockey team, certainly well above average in the league.

CP Debbie Downers: "We want top-end talent!"

Tkachuk, Gaudreau: >100 points
Lindholm: 40 goals
Mangiapane: 35 goals

CP Debbie Downers: "No, not like that!"

[GioforPM]

Roster aside I hope a few players really work hard on skating, like Point, Draisaitl, Perry, Boyle, etc. I know Tkachuk has had sessions, but what if he really dedicated himself to that one facet this summer?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by blender

This argument that Calgary doesn't have top-end talent is laughable. The team is full of talent. I don't know what some people thought they were watching this season, but that is a very good hockey team, certainly well above average in the league.

Exactly.

I’d be interested to see a list of better players than Gaudreau

I know Lindholm got the second place in voting for the Selke, but his line mates were a factor in that +61. Johnny backchecked his ass off.

He can’t dominate most opponents physically, something which gives the wow factor. He can’t blow past guys as much as some guys starting with Mc and Mac.

But day in, day out, the smarts, shiftiness, vision, production …

Most productive player 5 on 5 in the league

Given a poor coach to feed him an exorbitant (ie. comparable lol) amount of PP time, you’re looking at a potential Art Ross

Sorry to break the news to some.. That’s top end talent

You lock that #### down and build around it

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I’m betting top end talent to go farther in the POs. Look - Edmonton has top end talent but it’s taken them years to get to a kind of weird final 4 exit. Colorado has top end talent but they haven’t progressed far until this year. Calgary has equivalent top end talent to those teams. Gaudreau when on is as talented and creative as any player and Tkachuk is just a unique player.

Edit: top not flop

What is farther in the playoffs? Further than this year? Forget Edmonton, they aren't the barometer, Colorado may be that team, but a lot of their past failure came after the 1st round and the hump they couldn't get over was largely due to either depth or injury (completely different issues from the ones we face). In my personal opinion, in terms of playoff hockey success, the Flames have the depth but dont have the top end talent. From what I see, year after year, in the playoffs, the top end guys are easily contained against very stiff competition because they aren't good enough when it comes down to that level of hockey. I firmly believe Johnny is part of the solution, but his linemates (although very good and valuable) aren't the guys who can be your 2nd best players, if you want to win a Stanley Cup.

Brads in a tough spot, he for sure recognizes Chucky and Lindys value as really really good players, he's played it safe by building solid depth around them to hopefully make up for their inadequacies as legit 1st line horses who can take over and get it done in the playoffs, unfortunately thats failed. So what does he do now? Does he continue to tinker with the supporting cast to hopefully strike gold eventually? Or does he realize, in terms of playoff hockey, he needs better, to get to that championship caliber? As much as ive criticized the guy and called for his head, given this franchises perceived standard, he is in a super tough spot because nobody wants to bottom out and rely on a gum ball lottery play, like the clowns up north (the luckiest franchise of all time).

[Jore]

Originally Posted by CGY12

What is farther in the playoffs? Further than this year? Forget Edmonton, they aren't the barometer, Colorado may be that team, but a lot of their past failure came after the 1st round and the hump they couldn't get over was largely due to either depth or injury (completely different issues from the ones we face). In my personal opinion, in terms of playoff hockey success, the Flames have the depth but dont have the top end talent. From what I see, year after year, in the playoffs, the top end guys are easily contained against very stiff competition because they aren't good enough when it comes down to that level of hockey. I firmly believe Johnny is part of the solution, but his linemates (although very good and valuable) aren't the guys who can be your 2nd best players, if you want to win a Stanley Cup.

That's about where I'm at. Tkachuk and Lindolm are good (great in Tkachuk's case) 1st line players in the league, but the championship caliber teams have more than that, especially through the middle, and especially when it comes to pace and athleticism.

I also don't think the Flames had as much depth as you think this year, given that Edmonton's depth, exposed by the Avalanche, out-dueled our own outside of Backlund.

[Hackey]

I agree the Flames top end talent doesn't quite stack up which is why you need extra strong depth to overcome that. The Avs have Mackinnon, Rantanen, Makar. Those are 3 elite game breaker type players. Tkachuk and Lindholm are great players but I think they are closer to a Landeskog than those guys. Tampa has guys like Point, Kucherov, Hedman, Stamkos. Those teams are basically the litmus test for elite. Obviously that will change over time but most elite teams have that type of make up with a couple elite game breaking stars and then strong depth. Pens, Caps, Hawks, Kings, all had that make up. I feel the Flames are just a tad below.

[GioforPM]

What’s the evidence prior to this year that the Avs (or Oilers for that matter) had the top end talent to advance far in the POs?

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by Jore

That's about where I'm at. Tkachuk and Lindolm are good (great in Tkachuk's case) 1st line players in the league, but the championship caliber teams have more than that, especially through the middle, and especially when it comes to pace and athleticism.

I also don't think the Flames had as much depth as you think this year, given that Edmonton's depth, exposed by the Avalanche, out-dueled our own outside of Backlund.

Depth is as good as your top end guys. If the top line isn't performing at the level thats expected, it puts a lot more pressure on the depth guys, thus if they are quiet, the criticism is more of a vocal point.

I don't necessarily disagree that their are aspects of the game that our depth lacks in (speed), but if we had the Avs top line guys, that consistently bring it every game (this year), I believe it helps the depth guys indirectly, play a lot more loose and effectively, knowing they don't have to pick up the slack from the top end guys struggles.

The Avs may be a poor example because this is the only year that they've started to excel in the playoffs, but look at Tampa the last 3 years. You know what you are going to get from Kucherov, Point, Stamkos (when playing), Hedman, that management has been granted the fortune to continuously cycle in new players that are considered "depth" and they still see the same success.

[GioforPM]

TB has more top end talent than most teams. But the big difference between them and other teams is Vasilevsky. Before he took over they were just another team with great forwards and a star D, but average goaltending, and they didn’t progress well.

We saw two series that show what Calgary can do with good Markstrom (against a god-like performance by Oettinger), and with mediocre Markstrom.

[CGY12]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

TB has more top end talent than most teams. But the big difference between them and other teams is Vasilevsky. Before he took over they were just another team with great forwards and a star D, but average goaltending, and they didn’t progress well.

We saw two series that show what Calgary can do with good Markstrom (against a god-like performance by Oettinger), and with mediocre Markstrom.

Solid point, Vasilevsky is definitely a game changer and probably the primary reason that they've had so much success. From a general point of view, talking about all teams that have had solid playoff success over the last 10 years, I still firmly believe that when your top end guys elevate their game, in tight, fast paced, do or die hockey, it has an indirect affect on the depth guys and their ability to play their role effectively.

[TheSquatch]

I think the argument can be made both ways - there's teams with outrageously good top lines who are deeper than the Flames - better at more positions down the chart. Boston might be one, and in fact, their top line plays like the Flames top line, I'd say they are the closest in style.

Boston didn't have a deep run this year, but they have in the past. Doesn't mean they sell on those guys.

But the other side of the coin, the people who are worried here rather than excited, if you want to put it that way, is that the Flames just barely got by a very mediocre Dallas team and then got curbstomped by the Oilers, who then went on to show that they are nowhere near as good as Colorado. So in the camp of "I don't know if these guys are good enough" the worry is the Flames playoff performance is just not there - more specifically, you might say that the Flames spent their fuel winning a lousy division, and were unable to find another gear in the playoffs, something that the winning teams do. I don't think Dallas found another gear, I think they played a trappy defensive game and got awesome goaltending. But Calgary did not "break" Dallas in any way, there was no game where the Flames beat Dallas' system. There were a few nice shifts for sure. But each game was really competitive and the series went to the wire. And that frightens.

Yes, I want to see Johnny dangle someone, outskate someone, out compete someone. And I didn't see a ton of it. I saw Tkachuk do some magic, some real hard shifts and some real nice playmaking, I also saw him charging around like a bozo, mistaking anger for leadership (again). It's like he can't figure out how to stay effective as a hockey player sometimes.

They're both good players. And yeah, "top end talent" depending on where you set the bar. Just like any player. Rasmus Andersson is "top end talent" if you take the top 50% of defensemen in the league. But he wouldn't make the list of say, top 10 defensemen inthe league.


Is Kyle Connor "top end talent"? Near 50 goals but a -3 this year. He's burned the Flames a few times.

I don't know where the line is drawn.

I know Makar and MacKinnon can skate with McDavid, and the Flames can't, not really. Flames were a good team this year, and fell short in the playoffs. I think the fans want more. Not saying we deserve more - every team is trying for the same thing - maybe we should just be happy with a nice season and hope for the same again next year. And certainly NOT having Gaudeau and/or Tkachuk, the team is totally at sea, absolutely dead in the water I'd think. So you sign these guys, make tweaks around them, hope for better goaltending, and see what happens. There isn't a slick plan b, is there?

[shutout]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Sorry to break the news to some.. That’s top end talent

You lock that #### down and build around it

The kind of top end talent you want to build around has character and compete issues. This group in the core has never been able to suck it up and play the way they are supposed to when the games matter.

Sure they beat Dallas in game 7. But the reason it went to game seven is that the Flames were busy playing the Stars game the whole series. The team had an identity all season that helped them to be competitive and win and then they hit the playoffs and decide to do nothing that made them successful. Without Markstrom that series they would have been out in the first round.

Then in the playoffs against the oil Markstrom didn't even show up. Another series where the core tried to play the oil system of trading chances and last goal wins. Where was this great talent and core when they needed to play their team game and win 2-1? They disappeared. As they always have.

There still needs to be some big changes to this core to make them competitive. They have too many of their talented core that is comfortable just throwing the puck on the ice and playing the game instead of doing the hard stuff that leads to winning.

In my opinion the player at the top of the list is Tkachuk who needs to be moved.

[GioforPM]

The reason Dallas went to game 7 is because of Oettinger, full stop. Calgary pumped Dallas possession-wise. And Dallas is no pushover - look at their record with Oettinger in net. It’s as good as any top team.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

What’s the evidence prior to this year that the Avs (or Oilers for that matter) had the top end talent to advance far in the POs?

Pretty sure we all realized in round 1 in 2018.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Pretty sure we all realized in round 1 in 2018.

Avs lost in round one in 2018. If you mean 2018-19, they went no further than Calgary this year. The last tine they got past the second round Bob Hartley was their coach.

We looked at them in 2019 and thought they should go farther maybe. But that’s just an opinion and they didn’t do any better with their talent than Calgary has done to date with theirs. So why is Calgary different?

[Macho0978]

If the Flames added a top end dman I think we would find out our top end forwards and goalie are just fine. Doesn’t need to be Makar or Hedman but it shouldn’t be someone like Tanev. At this point he is still this teams best dman

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

If the Flames added a top end dman I think we would find out our top end forwards and goalie are just fine. Doesn’t need to be Makar or Hedman but it shouldn’t be someone like Tanev. At this point he is still this teams best dman

Our team was definitely missing the back end star since Gio was great and Hamilton.

We really have no threat from the back end, with the occasional play from Andersson. We need a true back end anchor for the PP