Spoilers allowed - Star Wars Episode IX

[CaptainCrunch]

I really liked the Anakin Obi-Wan fight in ROTS, the best part of it, besides the emotions of them fighting, was that they knew each other's moves so well. Of course the I have the high ground part was something that I disliked. But it went towards Anakin's arrogance and contempt.


The First Rey Kylo fight was decent enough. However she was just too natural in terms of light sabre fighting.



With Finn vs Kyle, that should have been over in two seconds flat with Finns head bouncing through the woods. To me it made Ren look weak.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Unpopular opinion alert.

Obi Wan and Anakins duel was one of the best scenes in all nine movies IMO. The emotion was there, the stakes were there, and the choreography was excellent and the music was perfect. I felt like the CGI team worked overtime on those shots because even the CGI is passable vs the rest of the prequels.

Rey and Kylo's duel was good and all, but what were the stakes? Did they really hate each other? JJ Abrams confirmed THAT is a lie.

I actually thought that thing was way too long and over the top.

Luke beating his dad's ass down while peeking into the dark side after Vader mentions Leia remains the best lightsaber scene in my opinion. Maybe, for me, the best scene altogether. Along with Han going into Carbonite.

[Coach]

Best lightsaber duel ranks. Not just skill and choreography, but emotional stakes.

Anakin v Obi Wan (Ep. 3)
Ashoka v Vader (Rebels)
Vader v Skywalker (Ep 6)
Vader v Skywalker (Ep 5)
Obi Wan/ Qui Gon v Maul (Ep. 1)
Rey/Ren v Red Guard (Ep 8)
Rey v Ren (Ep 7)
Rey v Ren (Ep 9)


Nothing else is really that memorable as far as emotion goes. There are lots in the prequels, but none of them have much for stakes. I was surprised where the Duel of the Fates came out on my list, because as a kid it drove me nuts. IN hindsight, it's well choreographed and cool and Qui Gon's death adds a lot to the stakes, but the actual emotion between the characters isn't there, because we really didn't know Maul at all. That music though.

If you havent seen the Ashoka/Vader duel, I recommend watching all of Clone Wars just to enjoy that piece. So well done. It feels like Vader's final turn away from Anakin. Makes me wish parts of the Clone Wars was actually Ep 1 and 2 instead of what we got.

[Fuzz]

E3 Anakin v Obi Wan had great stakes, but the lava crap made it nonsense. No one is fighting in a lava river, they are all dead. Stage it somewhere else? Sure, could be #3(behind e5 and e6), but as is? It felt like a video game fight location.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Coach

Best lightsaber duel ranks. Not just skill and choreography, but emotional stakes.

Anakin v Obi Wan (Ep. 3)
Ashoka v Vader (Rebels)
Vader v Skywalker (Ep 6)
Vader v Skywalker (Ep 5)
Obi Wan/ Qui Gon v Maul (Ep. 1)
Rey/Ren v Red Guard (Ep 8)
Rey v Ren (Ep 7)
Rey v Ren (Ep 9)


Nothing else is really that memorable as far as emotion goes. There are lots in the prequels, but none of them have much for stakes. I was surprised where the Duel of the Fates came out on my list, because as a kid it drove me nuts. IN hindsight, it's well choreographed and cool and Qui Gon's death adds a lot to the stakes, but the actual emotion between the characters isn't there, because we really didn't know Maul at all. That music though.

If you havent seen the Ashoka/Vader duel, I recommend watching all of Clone Wars just to enjoy that piece. So well done. It feels like Vader's final turn away from Anakin. Makes me wish parts of the Clone Wars was actually Ep 1 and 2 instead of what we got.

I liked the Dooku vs Anakin fight at the start of Revenge of the Sith. When Dooku and Anakin were fighting and Dooku says something like "You have great anger and fear and you should use it" And Anakin's style changed at that point and became more hard hitting and brutal and he battered down poor Dooku as a great piece of story telling.


When you look at Ashoka vs Vader, the one thing that stands out, Vader isn't fighting some sword fight, his style is powerful but a bit clumsy because of his suite, he's still pretty much in his early days of being Vader, he's intensely powerful and hard hitting, but you sense that he's still a man hampered by the suit he's in. Even in his fights against Luke, it was the same thing, he wasn't using technique, he was just beating the crap out of his opponent and over powering them.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Rey and Kylo's duel was good and all, but what were the stakes? Did they really hate each other? JJ Abrams confirmed THAT is a lie.

No, they loved each other! Have you never fought with someone you love? That ratchets the emotional intensity up by a magnitude of like 3.6...

[Wormius]

Vader vs Luke all the way for me. The energy was a lot more raw and Luke actually looked like was really trying to kill Vader.

[Fuzz]

Was it mentioned how great Billy Dee Williams was? Guy looked like he was having a ton of fun just being there. I thought his intro scene was not great, more of way to "how can we get him back in the plot" sort of stuff, but the rest of the time he was great.

[Muffins]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Was it mentioned how great Billy Dee Williams was? Guy looked like he was having a ton of fun just being there. I thought his intro scene was not great, more of way to "how can we get him back in the plot" sort of stuff, but the rest of the time he was great.

Funny you mention that.
My first comment to my buddy outside the theater: "Was it just me or was Billy Dee trying to get some at the end?"

[CaptainCrunch]

I go back to the question of is Ashoka dead by the events of TROS, and the whole Dead Jedi talking to Rey thing kept resonating with me.


Taking the quote

Obi Wan Kenobi: These are you final steps, Rey. Rise and take them.
Anakin Skywalker: Rey.
Ahsoka Tano: Rey.
Kannan Jarus: Rey.
Anakin Skywalker: Bring back the balance, Rey. As I did.
Luminara Unduli: The light. Find the light, Rey.
Mace Windu: You're not alone, Rey.
Yoda: Alone, never have you been.
Qui-Gon Jinn: Every Jedi who ever lived, lives in you.
Anakin Skywalker: The force surrounds you, Rey.
Aayla Secura: Let it guide you.
Ahsoka Tano: As it guided us.
Mace Windu: Feel the force feeling through you, Rey.
Anakin Skywalker: Let it lift you, Rey.
Adi Gallia: Rise, Rey.

I keep going back to all of the dead jedi talking and her statement being in the past tense to believe that at some point we'll see the end of Snipes

[Luder]

Originally Posted by Muffins

Funny you mention that.
My first comment to my buddy outside the theater: "Was it just me or was Billy Dee trying to get some at the end?"

It was rumored that she was/is going to be Lando's daughter.

https://www.insider.com/star-wars-th...ughter-2019-12

[Oling_Roachinen]

"Anakin Skywalker: Bring back the balance, Rey. As I did."

By killing all the younglings and helping to destroy the Jedi order? Not to mention a planet or two? I guess it worked out though seeing as you got rid of Palpatine...wait.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

"Anakin Skywalker: Bring back the balance, Rey. As I did."

By killing all the younglings and helping to destroy the Jedi order? Not to mention a planet or two? I guess it worked out though seeing as you got rid of Palpatine...wait.

And that's what I really didn't like about the ST story line. At the end it basically tossed out the end of the OT.


And yeah there's always been questions about what balance means.


For some the extermination of the Jedi by Anakin and then the end of Anakin and Palpatine leaving just Luke left the Force in a balance.


For other's balance meant the end of the Dark Side of the Force and the Sith leaving the Force in light is balance.


Obviously the prophesy was Jedi Propaganda.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Unpopular opinion alert.

Obi Wan and Anakins duel was one of the best scenes in all nine movies IMO. The emotion was there, the stakes were there, and the choreography was excellent and the music was perfect. I felt like the CGI team worked overtime on those shots because even the CGI is passable vs the rest of the prequels.

Rey and Kylo's duel was good and all, but what were the stakes? Did they really hate each other? JJ Abrams confirmed THAT is a lie.

I know 2 of the 3 have been pretty successful actors and have done well in other roles. But the acting in that scene specifically makes that movie almost unwatchable for me.

Don't get me wrong the rest of the movie is pretty uninspired, it failed the entire initial promise of the trilogy. The rise of vader was completely unmotivated and that story arch was the only reason for the existence of all 3 movies. But the acting when he finally turned Nathalie Portman standing there with a fake prego belly and a flat expressionless tone literally say "Ani your breaking my heart". it was just bad.


Rey and Kylos dual was really well motivated, they have fought before, they have been rivals for years, they both had deep internal conflicts about who they were, who they wanted to be, and who they thought they were. And those conflicts found them tripping over eachother constantly, help each other, hurting each other, and turning on each other. I agree with the general annoyance that this trilogies plot needlessly walked back all of the events of the originals, but biggest redeeming light is Rey was a great character through all 3 movies, and Kylo was a great character through the 2nd and 3rd movie.

[blankall]

I actually like that whole closing sequence in RotS. Not only was the final confrontation beteween Obi Wan/Anakin well done, but the scenes where they are fusing the suit to Anakin and he transforms into Vader were great too. When he was on the table screaming in agony and the droids are picking pieces of burnt clothing and skin off him or when they show the mask being put on, and his eyes widen like he finally realizes what he's done and there's no going back.

The bit where he does the frankenstein walk off the stretcher and screams "Noooo!" was a bit cheesy, but when you watch in the context of many of the talks Vader gives to Luke in the OT, it really jives with Vader's character.

It's too bad that the getting to Vader in the prequel was so clumsy and boring at times. Hayden Christensen's acting, the dialogue, the weird focus on "trade talks", the bad CGI, Jar Jar, the over the top villains, etc...all make the OT a really clumsy affair. However, in Lucas' defense this was the state of film at the time. CGI hadn't quite progressed to the point it was realistic, but it was used extensively.

[CaptainCrunch]

I keep going back to that scene when Anakin is masked for the first time, and its a combination of realization and then resolve. Remember he didn't know that he had killed his wife yet. That was the look of a man that in his mind was saying


"Obi Wan Kenobi, you just made the list".



There was absolutely some awkwardness in ROTS, the NOOOOO cry could have been better. But I did like the frankenstein lumber off of the table as a man that was not used to the suit.


I loved the slow seduction of Anakin by Palpatine who used selective truth .


The opera scene was brilliant, the scene in the office between Anakin and Palpatine was brilliant.


I didn't have a problem with the whole taxation of the trade routes, politics, we knew that the Republic wasn't going to fall on the sword of a Sith Lord, with armies over throwing the republic. The Republic was going to crumble for the same reason why the Jedi collapsed. Supreme Arrogance, blindness and corruption.


In the Revenge of the Sith novel, which is excellent. Dooku likened the light side of the Force as looking through a window and seeing a meadow with flowers and trees. The Darkside was a blacker then black storm on the horizon, and Palpatine was that lurker looking through and testing windows and doors like a burgler trying to find a way into your home without alerting anyone.


I didn't have a problem at all with the storyline of the OT, I thought the Palpatine storyline was good. But there were some breakdowns in execution. Yeah Hayden was pretty flat and Nat looked at times like she'd rather be doing any other movie. I think if George could go back, maybe Anakin would be recast, but physicality wise Hayden was the choice, and on top of that, when he became Vader pre suit, I thought he had some great moments. With the best part being him standing by the railing with tears rolling down his cheeks because deep down he knew, he was lost.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

And that's what I really didn't like about the ST story line. At the end it basically tossed out the end of the OT.


And yeah there's always been questions about what balance means.


For some the extermination of the Jedi by Anakin and then the end of Anakin and Palpatine leaving just Luke left the Force in a balance.


For other's balance meant the end of the Dark Side of the Force and the Sith leaving the Force in light is balance.


Obviously the prophesy was Jedi Propaganda.

The thing is though that in order to create a sequel in the near future they need to say that the story wasn't finished at the end of the OT.

In order to have any type of Jedi/Sith conflict that means that the original ending in the OT was not a true victory for Luke & the Jedi.

And I think that's what makes the hardcore fans of the Original Trilogy unable to like this trilogy at all. All the fans can think is "This is ruining my childhood. Luke, Leia, and Hans were the heroes that eliminated evil and now this movie is saying they didn't win".

And that's why this trilogy had issues. For TFA it was okay because people were just happy to see everyone on screen again. It pretty much was a rehash of ANH, didn't really call out any flaws of the OT characters, and didn't really dig into how the universe got to this point again, so people were able to accept it.

BUT once TLJ was forced to actually dig into the back story of how The First Order became a power, why Luke was in hiding, and actually show why Kylo turned to the dark side it all fell apart. Because the people that wanted Luke/Hans/Leia to be flawless and heroes coming out of the OT couldn't accept that those heroes had failed and it all turned to #### so quickly after the OT ended.

Even though part of the story of this trilogy was that those three OT characters Hans/Luke/Leia had their own redemption arcs much like Vader had in the OT, it was too late. Fans didn't want to see those characters as flawed, the wanted them to be flawless.

That's why my guess is that in retrospect Disney wishes they had just stayed away from the Original Trilogy all together. They should have just placed Rey 100 years into the future with the same type of storyline.

Have the storyline be that the Force has awoken, maybe Kylo is still some great grandchild of Hans or something and he was a fanatic of the history of Vader, but just stay away from any of the Original Trilogy cast or characters being in this movie at all. Have the stories of Luke/Hans/Leia and those that eliminated Vader be tales from the past.

I honestly think that's they only way the could have pleased the hardcore fans, and created their own heroes.

Fans of the OT have such strong opinions of the OT characters and of Star Wars lore that anything that goes against what they've built up in their heads is going to create controversy.

Only way around that is just to create a whole new story in the universe and stay away from those characters all together.

[CaptainCrunch]

Fair enough.



My problem wasn't really as much of anything is that the story was jarring and out of sync.



One thing that I actually liked, is that Kylo and Snoke in the first two movies weren't Sith, they didn't name themselves Sith. One of the things that I pointed out before TFA was that when Vader killed Palpatine and died that the Sith linage and all of that knowledge was dead. They were merely dark side users. I didn't mind that at all. It did get around killing the end of the OT, Vader had lived up to at least part of the prophesy at that point. Remember what Obi said.


It was prophesized that you would destroy the Sith not join them, and that you wouldn't leave the Force in darkness. So going off of that I could live with the dark side rise. Even Snoke touched on it. The dark rises and the light rises to meet it. We're still talking some modicum of balance.


While I love Palpatine, I frankly hated the idea of bringing him back, it was jarring because it made no sense to me and seemed like nothing more then fan service and a frantic repair effort on killing off Snoke, and a attempt to pad ticket sales.



One of the big complaints with the PT was in the PM having Anakin as this young cute innocent kid. Would the story have been serviced with Anakin being older, more shades of grey? I think it could have.


In the ST, this one, could they have started this whole thing without any real hint of force users at the very start? I think it would have had a really cool possibility if we didn't even have Kylo showing up til the very end of the movie, and just have the first order in the first movie as the key enemy through the use of armies and technology.


I always thought that Luke being willing to go to the Island of woe in self banishment leaving the galaxy in the hands of two powerful dark side users was just a poor choice. I mean they could have really played up a split between Leia and Solo and Luke in a really simple manner. Have everyone believe that Ben had fallen and rose as Kylo Ren and everyone including Luke believing that Luke had killed him. Now you have a great reason for Luke in self banishment on the Island wanting to let the Jedi die and Leia and Han not really wanting to talk to him. Then at the end of the movie you can reveal Kylo Ren as one of the movers and shakers behind the First Order. Then you can introduce Snoke in the second movie still kill Luke off and have the confrontation of Rey against Ben and Snoke in the third with the question of redemption for Ren, and do something different and not have Ren as redeemable.



But now I'm just meandering. I didn't mind the ST, I didn't think it was a great trilogy though story wise or conclusion wise for a 42 year old story.


But I'm not militantly hating on it.

[peter12]

Luke vs Vader both times were the best lightsabre duels. The rest are just dancefighting.

[speede5]

I was giddy as a schoolgirl when Yoda fought Dooku. Might not make any top ten lists but I still love it.