11 Dallas police officers shot by sniper at peaceful protest. 5 officers dead.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Just so we're clear - you're suggesting the 8 times higher rate of homicide convictions of blacks is due to police and court bias? So thousands of innocent blacks going to jail for homicides, while thousands of whites who commit murder go free?

Originally Posted by peter12

You won't get a response to this.

I'll take an amateur stab at it. Homicides are just part and parcel to the cycle of violence amongst African Americans, which is connected to the war drugs, which has targeted low income citizens (see: black people).

I get the point CliffFletcher is getting at - that while others are pointing to black people not being given a fair shake by law enforcement, homicide somehow proves this isn't the case because everyone who commits murder is charged if caught, so there the stats can't be skewed.

I just found the point to be disengenous at best, in his continual quest to downplay any perceived struggles or inequality towards African Americans. I guess if we all just said "Yes, CliffFletcher black people just need to be better people and we'll stop looking to blame anyone but them for their struggles" then maybe we'd reach an agreement?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Just so we're clear - you're suggesting the 8 times higher rate of homicide convictions of blacks is due to police and court bias? So thousands of innocent blacks going to jail for homicides, while thousands of whites who commit murder go free?

Originally Posted by peter12

You won't get a response to this.

There needn't be a response because it's irrelevant. You're obfuscating here. The article and your argument rely on a connection between homicides and the killing of unarmed civilians by police . You'll have to prove something here

[jayswin]

Wow, that was a psycnet level response by me there, Peter12. Apologies, not having a great day, lol.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by jayswin

I'll take an amateur stab at it. Homicides are just part and parcel to the cycle of violence amongst African Americans, which is connected to the war drugs, which has targeted low income citizens (see: black people).

I get the point CliffFletcher is getting at - that while others are pointing to black people not being given a fair shake by law enforcement, homicide somehow proves this isn't the case because everyone who commits murder is charged if caught, so there the stats can't be skewed.

I just found the point to be disengenous at best, in his continual quest to downplay any perceived struggles or inequality towards African Americans. I guess if we all just said "Yes, CliffFletcher black people just need to be better people and we'll stop looking to blame anyone but them for their struggles" then maybe we'd reach an agreement?

8 times. 8 times. That isn't statistical error. That is another world.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

There needn't be a response because it's irrelevant. You're obfuscating here. The article and your argument rely on a connection between homicides and the killing of unarmed civilians by police . You'll have to prove something here

So we are drawing massive generalizations here, but maybe show some sociological imagination.

One community - in the aggregate - suffers way more internal violence than the other. That said, if you go to West Virginia or Arkansas, you are going to see the same.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Just so we're clear - you're suggesting the 8 times higher rate of homicide convictions of blacks is due to police and court bias? So thousands of innocent blacks going to jail for homicides, while thousands of whites who commit murder go free?

The racial bias inherent in the justice system certainly doesn't equate for that entire differential, of course not.
But the other systemic issues that work against black people in America--worse schools, more cases of absent fathers due to higher incarceration for black men, fewer job opportunities, etc, etc, etc would have something to do with the fact that there is a higher rate of violent crime among blacks in this country. They aren't inherently more violent due to their skin color, which seems to be the implication you're making.

Also in general there are far more white people in the US who have access to high price legal counsel that could get them a plea bargain for a smaller charge and less jail time. A poor black kid from the South Side of Chicago is going to get an overworked public defender.

Originally Posted by jayswin

I'll take an amateur stab at it. Homicides are just part and parcel to the cycle of violence amongst African Americans, which is connected to the war drugs, which has targeted low income citizens (see: black people).

I get the point CliffFletcher is getting at - that while others are pointing to black people not being given a fair shake by law enforcement, homicide somehow proves this isn't the case because everyone who commits murder is charged if caught, so there the stats can't be skewed.

I just found the point to be disengenous at best, in his continual quest to downplay any perceived struggles or inequality towards African Americans. I guess if we all just said "Yes, CliffFletcher black people just need to be better people and we'll stop looking to blame anyone but them for their struggles" then maybe we'd reach an agreement?

You did a fantastic job of expressing my thoughts here, so I just wanted to give you a quick thumbs up.

Originally Posted by peter12

So we are drawing massive generalizations here, but maybe show some sociological imagination.

One community - in the aggregate - suffers way more internal violence than the other. That said, if you go to West Virginia or Arkansas, you are going to see the same.

So basically you're not disagreeing. If you go to WVa or Arkansas--where the education quality is lower, the upward mobility is much more difficult, where there are systemic issues that hold back a population, they are likely to have more violence among themselves. It's not skin color--its the societal challenges that a population faces.

Black communities are a microcosm of this issue, and it's further complicated because in small communities like that, the Ol' Boys Club is often going to let people off the hook for minor crimes, (my mother's entire family is from rural railroad towns in Appalachia, if you know the judge/chief/sherriff and he likes your family, you get a break) leaving them without a permanent mark on their record, whereas in black communities you have police who often push harsher punishment for the crimes that might be over-looked in those small town rural communities.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by peter12

So we are drawing massive generalizations here, but maybe show some sociological imagination.

One community - in the aggregate - suffers way more internal violence than the other. That said, if you go to West Virginia or Arkansas, you are going to see the same.

While black on black violence is a very real problem, I think it takes more than imagination to assume it's reasonable that killing of unarmed black people should follow suit to this degree.

Especially considering of the 102 killings of unarmed black civilians there were 2 convictions. Realistically, the number is probably higher as reporting as unarmed is not done everywhere so 102 is likely lower than reality

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by jayswin

I get the point CliffFletcher is getting at - that while others are pointing to black people not being given a fair shake by law enforcement, homicide somehow proves this isn't the case because everyone who commits murder is charged if caught, so there the stats can't be skewed.

I just found the point to be disengenous at best, in his continual quest to downplay any perceived struggles or inequality towards African Americans. I guess if we all just said "Yes, CliffFletcher black people just need to be better people and we'll stop looking to blame anyone but them for their struggles" then maybe we'd reach an agreement?

I'm saying it's both. People who blame blacks only need to recognize there are systemic biases at work. People who blame only the systemic biases need to recognizes black American culture has some serious problems that outsiders can't fix, and that most victims of black crime are other blacks. Addressing these issues in binary terms is just a way to make it easy to identify who to cast as the villains, to create an emotionally satisfying narrative. If people are really interested in solving these problems they need to recognize that they're complicated, and the solutions won't hew to political or ideological narratives.

[driveway]

The vast, vast majority of violent criminals, most murderers, almost every single serial killer, and very nearly every mass shooter has been male. This is true in every nation in the world.

Clearly there are deep and profound problems with men and male culture.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by driveway

The vast, vast majority of violent criminals, most murderers, almost every single serial killer, and very nearly every mass shooter has been male. This is true in every nation in the world.

Clearly there are deep and profound problems with men and male culture.

Find an anti-testosterone drug and save the world.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by driveway

The vast, vast majority of violent criminals, most murderers, almost every single serial killer, and very nearly every mass shooter has been male. This is true in every nation in the world.

Clearly there are deep and profound problems with men and male culture.

...or a systemic bias against men in the justice system?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I'm saying it's both. People who blame blacks only need to recognize there are systemic biases at work. People who blame only the systemic biases need to recognizes black American culture has some serious problems that outsiders can't fix, and that most victims of black crime are other blacks. Addressing these issues in binary terms is just a way to make it easy to identify who to cast as the villains, to create an emotionally satisfying narrative. If people are really interested in solving these problems they need to recognize that they're complicated, and the solutions won't hew to political or ideological narratives.

Exactly.

You'd think this would be obvious, but instead you're just accused of trying to minimize the struggles of black people. Has the word "manichaean" been excised from the collective consciousness?

[peter12]

The collapse of communities is a moral and social phenomenon that I find very interesting. My work with First Nations communities over the years demonstrated the exorbitant impact that intra-group politics and relations have over external influences.

There is a great book by Edward Banfield called the "The Moral Basis of Backwards Societies," which investigates the failures of a small peasant village in post-war Southern Italy. Basically, even in an environment with a relative degree of plenty, villagers were unable or unwilling to cooperate to achieve even the minimal relationships to achieve better economic, health, political outcomes. Even the village pharmacist/doctor wouldn't treat or prescribe children from outside of his family circle without a prearranged payment relationship. The availability of drugs and medical equipment was not an issue.

Banfield extended his analysis later to inner-black communities, and found a great deal of similarity. He also found that government attempts to redress the problems tended to exacerbate them. I basically took Banfield's analysis and applied it to my studies on First Nations communities. It fit.

You have a lot going on at all levels. At the top, a rentier type political system, where benefits aggregate at a top-level, and are filtered down to favourites in the community. This is used to secure, and crystallize political power. Citizens - or more aptly, subjects - tend to disengage from political processes, and this has multi-generational effects.

At the economic level, again, minimal level of cooperation. Successful workers leave the community, or find a place in community projects funded by external sources, and controlled by community leadership. Everyone else just survives...

At a moral level, everyone has been disengaged to the point of atomization. It is here where the families start to break apart. Men become serial husbands. women become serial single mothers. Children are bereft. Distrust of outsiders becomes the sole mean of shared identity.

Police have difficulty even entering the community, and when they manage to get in, it is often token, or as a show of force. People see police as ineffective. Animosity and antagonism grows between police and locals. Violence ensues.

Cycle continues.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by driveway

These are two completely different ideas and your grouping of them together under the banner of 'evil tribalism' is evidence of your lack of study or deep-thinking on the topic.

The fundamental thing you seem to be missing about what you deride as 'identity politics' is that those who participate in these movements are working to overcome the tribalism you so despise. The LGBT movement, Black Lives Matter, Feminism, are all coming from the premise that either gays, or blacks, or women have been excluded and deserve to be included.

When people say "Black Lives Matter" there is an unspoken too at the end of the statement. When the Pride parade marches, the implication is that LGBT people can be proud too. When Feminists point out rape culture and inequities they're saying women matter too.

If you truly believed that tribalism was the dangerous force you claim it to be, and you understood these movements at anything more than a pop-culture level, you would be a feminist, and a supporter of BLM, and march in the Pride parade.

You're fond of suggesting reading material, go read Between the World and Me, A Room of One's Own, and The Velvet Rage and see if anything changes.

I have yet to see a grand unifying concept or theory bringing these divergent perspectives together.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by peter12

I have yet to see a grand unifying concept or theory bringing these divergent perspectives together.

Which is one of the biggest issues with both the feminist movement and the LGBT movement. They do a good job of trying to bring in white women, white LGBT, but a poor job of making it inclusive for minorities. I.E. the quote is always that women make 79 cents to the dollar compared to men--black and latina women make far less than that.

None of these movements are perfect, but they're better than nothing.

[calgaryblood]

Another black man shot and it looks like he had his hands in the air but hard to tell from the video. Both cops had body cameras so will be interesting if the video gets released.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201.../alva-braziel/

[taco.vidal]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...alabama-calls/

First black Miss Alabama calls Dallas cop killer a ‘martyr’
By Jessica Chasmar - The Washington Times - Monday, July 11, 2016

The first black woman to hold the title of Miss Alabama posted a tearful message Sunday calling Dallas cop killer Micah Xavier Johnson a “martyr.”

Kalyn Chapman James, who was crowned Miss Alabama before placing as a top-10 semi-finalist in the 1994 Miss America pageant, posted a live video on Facebook that’s been viewed more than 7,400 times.

“I don’t want to feel this way,” Ms. James said into the camera. “I’m dealing with a bit of guilt because I don’t feel sad for the officers that lost their lives, and I know that that’s not really my heart. I value human life, and I want to feel sad for them, but I can’t help but [feel] like the shooter was a martyr. And I know it’s not the right way to feel, because nobody deserves to lose their lives and I know that those police officers had families and people who loved them and that they didn’t deserve to die.”

“But I’m so torn up in my heart about seeing these men, these black men, being gunned down in our community that I can’t help,” she continued, sobbing. “I wasn’t surprised by what the shooter did to those cops, and I think a lot of us feel the same way.”

“I know that it’s not right, and I definitely don’t condone violence, but I’m sick of this,” she said. “I’m sick of this, and something has to be done, period.”

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

Which is one of the biggest issues with both the feminist movement and the LGBT movement. They do a good job of trying to bring in white women, white LGBT, but a poor job of making it inclusive for minorities. I.E. the quote is always that women make 79 cents to the dollar compared to men--black and latina women make far less than that.

None of these movements are perfect, but they're better than nothing.

is it because minorities are more racist and homophobic against each other so none of the movements get anywhere? I (Asian) find whites the most accommodating people on earth and even then it's not good enough in the social world.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...alabama-calls/

God knows, I don't condone what she says, she's as wrong as White People who say its ok for the Cops to gun a black person down in the middle of the street. But at the very least she's honest about her feelings.

My sense is that the divide between races in the United States is massively wide and getting wider.

I'm more worried about the people stewing in silent rage right now on either side of this debates.

But she's wrong. The shooter isn't a martyr, he certainly wasn't doing the right thing. He clearly wasn't fighting for Black Lives. He was a straight up psycho killer who lashed out and probably made things worse.

Look, I'm not a minority, but I can close my eyes and envision what it would feel like to be embattled in my own country, to wake up and read these reports and see videos and I know that I would feel nothing but anger and if it festered long enough hatred.

The American's have a major problem. They need cops and sadly they need cops to be armed because they are dealing with a fairly heavily armed population. Putting bobbies on the corner with radios that can call in specially armed units isn't going to work especially in the higher crime and gang infested areas of the inner city.

But I'll be honest, both sides need to take a massive bit out of the shyte sandwhich that is this situation. The Cops clearly are having trouble in terms of standards and training and respect. But to condemn the millions of good cops because of what I believe is a minority of bad cops won't fix the problem.

At the same time the Black Communities need to find a way to work with the police and the various levels of government to fix their communities and improve education and improve their ability to work with and help the police do their jobs. Because god knows I wouldn't want to be a cop walking a beat in a major city in the States.

Its on both sides to fix this.

But I can see her point, its stupid and its wrong and someone out there who might be sick or crazy or angry is going to take her message the only way he can.

I tend to think that the next year is going to be even more horrible then anything we can imagine.