Gender neutrality and political correctness discussion

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by shermanator

polak gonna polak...

racism.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by polak

'twas a joke.

calm your pecs.

Maybe this thread isn't the place for those types of jokes?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Which lawyer? cause I don't think it's cut and dry at all. Granted we don't have the full picture of the story or the code of conduct but man this story raises so many issues and many employment lawyer's i have talked to would gladly take this case. Even if the Union doesn't help, he can hire a lawyer and go after both company and union.

EDIT: I am not arguing that this guy is innocent or the Company was legally wrong in justifying termination for cause, but this is not a cut and dry area and there is room to argue for the employee. BUT, it is important to realize that any lawyer commenting on this case does not know the full story and cannot base a termination on the facts that have been presented.

The lawyer didn't claim to have all the facts. He just said from a legal standpoint, an employer can terminate an employee for conduct away from the office and outside work hours if that conduct could affect the work place negatively embarrass the company or affect customer relations. In this case, based on the information everyone has, he thought there were many reasons why one could conceive that it would have a negative impact.

He never said that there was no recourse for the individual, only that it can and does happen all the time. He also said that someone in a management position, as this guy was, would have a harder case to prove that his actions wouldn't have an impact.

[polak]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

racism.

It's actually a hate crime now.

[Northendzone]

Back in my day we yelled "hi mom" when there was a tv camera around. What this guy did, and this trend is epically stupid and iris like they are getting on the shock the world mentality.

I read an article that suggested this phrase was indicative of the rape culture in our society today. If there is such a culture, I am completely unaware of it, but I can't say I have heard of anyone who openly condones rape - other than dumb jokes. And you can argue if those jokes are really something else or not.

To me this is plain old stupidity.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

I read an article that suggested this phrase was indicative of the rape culture in our society today. If there is such a culture, I am completely unaware of it, but I can't say I have heard of anyone who openly condones rape - other than dumb jokes. And you can argue if those jokes are really something else or not.

I don't think we live in a rape culture. There are few times or places in history where rape has been less common than in North America today.

However, I think we're going through a time where a lot of men haven't grown up, don't know how to grow up, and are looking for some way to show other men that they're men. Aggressively talking trash about women seems to be what they've come up with. Which is pathetic.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I don't think we live in a rape culture. There are few times or places in history where rape has been less common than in North America today.

However, I think we're going through a time where a lot of men haven't grown up, don't know how to grow up, and are looking for some way to show other men that they're men. Aggressively talking trash about women seems to be what they've come up with. Which is pathetic.

Not a rape culture?

Statistics show that 1 in 5 women are victims of some form of sexual assault, and other stats have shown that 1 in 6 boys are victims of sexual assault by age 18.

While yes, the US currently does a better job than it has in years past--it doesn't mean that rape isn't a major problem in this country that faces both men and women.

And really, those stats may not show the whole picture, as a lot of people, women and especially men, are less likely to report a sexual assault incidence for fear of not being believed, being mocked, being told they were asking for it, etc, etc.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

Not a rape culture?

Statistics show that 1 in 5 women are victims of some form of sexual assault, and other stats have shown that 1 in 6 boys are victims of sexual assault by age 18.

While yes, the US currently does a better job than it has in years past--it doesn't mean that rape isn't a major problem in this country that faces both men and women.

And really, those stats may not show the whole picture, as a lot of people, women and especially men, are less likely to report a sexual assault incidence for fear of not being believed, being mocked, being told they were asking for it, etc, etc.

Rape =/ sexual assault.

[jayswin]

Yeah Witty, rape culture doesn't count until rape occurs. All that other stuff is part of the more respectable pre-rape culture.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Yeah Witty, rape culture doesn't count until rape occurs. All that other stuff is part of the more respectable pre-rape culture.

Nonsense. Sexual assault and rape imply different acts, one more serious than the other, and using them interchangeably is disingenuous.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Dagger

Nonsense. Sexual assault and rape imply different acts, one more serious than the other, and using them interchangeably is disingenuous.

She was talking about rape culture not rape by itself.

[DownInFlames]

Legally in Canada, and most jurisdictions, rape is sexual assault.

But the point is any sexual assault can be devastating. To say rape is more serious than sexual assault is like saying lung cancer is more serious than prostate cancer. Both can ruin lives.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

Not a rape culture?

Statistics show that 1 in 5 women are victims of some form of sexual assault, and other stats have shown that 1 in 6 boys are victims of sexual assault by age 18.

Source?

Using the term 'rape culture' suggests that the culture in question is more tolerant of rape than others, or rape happens more often. It invites comparison.

That comparison can be done, if you want to look at the data. North America today is less tolerant of sexual assault, and sees less of it occur, than other cultures - in other parts of the world today and in the past. Rape is treated far more seriously by the legal system than it was in the past. In the mid-70s, marital rape was not a crime anywhere in North America or Western Europe. Today it is in all of those jurisdictions.

When you're trying to address an issue, it helps to look at empirical data and trends. It's useful to recognize what you're doing right as well as what you're doing wrong. Recognizing progress doesn't mean minimizing the seriousness of assaults when they happen.

Originally Posted by wittynickname

While yes, the US currently does a better job than it has in years past--it doesn't mean that rape isn't a major problem in this country that faces both men and women.

I didn't say it is isn't a major problem. Murder is a major problem. Does Canada have a 'murder culture?' I'd suggest it doesn't, as murder happens less now than in the past, and less in Canada than it does in a lot of other places in the world. Emotional terms that aren't based on data bring heat to the issue, but not light.

Originally Posted by wittynickname

And really, those stats may not show the whole picture, as a lot of people, women and especially men, are less likely to report a sexual assault incidence for fear of not being believed, being mocked, being told they were asking for it, etc, etc.

Yes, some sexual assault is underreported. But it was even more underreported in the past than it is today. And studies designed to minimize underreporting show a dramatic decline in sexual assault over the last 50 years. The FBI study of rape cited by Steven Pinker in the Better Angels of Our Nature shows an 80 per cent decline between 1973 and 2008, from 250 per 100,000 people to 50 per 100,000. As Pinker points out, the decline may be even steeper, as women are almost certainly more likely to report rape today than in 1973. And the rate of rape has dropped even more sharply than the murder rate, which suggests it isn't simply part of the generalized decrease in crime we've seen since the 70s.

International comparisons of rape are difficult, especially with countries outside the developed West. But even if we are to look at the laws themselves, it's difficult to conclude that rape is taken more seriously in other parts of the world than it is in North America and Europe. In many countries there is still no law against spousal rape, still rulings based on the notion that women are often 'asking for it,' still low rates of conviction for rape. If America has a 'rape culture', then what do India, Nigeria, and Kazakhstan have?

Originally Posted by DownInFlames

But the point is any sexual assault can be devastating. To say rape is more serious than sexual assault is like saying lung cancer is more serious than prostate cancer. Both can ruin lives.

Being mugged can be devastating. And yet the law draws a distinction between having a knife held to your throat, and being kicked in the head until you're unconscious. Degrees of things are important.

[CaramonLS]

I believe there was also some methodology questions raised in regards to that 1/5 survey. In particular, it asked a question about "sexual contact while “drunk, high, drugged or passed out and unable to consent.”"

Not saying that this isn't a problem, but results can be highly suspect when asking something like that.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

It's also a debate not really worth having. I don't think we need stats to prove that sexual assault is a problem in our society that needs to be addressed. Whether it's 1/5 or 1/10 or 1/20 hardly matters, it's far too prevalent and ignorance persists as to what "consent" even is or what behaviour is appropriate in various situations. The term "rape culture" though is just such a knee-jerk sort of label that it's not a productive way to frame the discussion.

[ae118]

Originally Posted by Dagger

Nonsense. Sexual assault and rape imply different acts, one more serious than the other, and using them interchangeably is disingenuous.

Rape is a form of sexual assault. It's not "disingenuous" at all.

http://www.edmontonpolice.ca/Communi...alAssault.aspx

[Tinordi]

Dismissing rape culture by splitting hairs about the semantics of sexual assault and rape is infact adding credibility to the argument that we are living in a rape culture.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I didn't say it is isn't a major problem. Murder is a major problem. Does Canada have a 'murder culture?' I'd suggest it doesn't, as murder happens less now than in the past, and less in Canada than it does in a lot of other places in the world. Emotional terms that aren't based on data bring heat to the issue, but not light.

Murder doesn't affect 10-20% of the population.

Rape and sexual assault do.

Stats?

https://1in6.org/the-1-in-6-statistic/

And actually, I missed on the women. It wasn't 1 in 5, it was 1 in 6, so apologies on that.

https://www.rainn.org/get-informatio...ssault-victims

There are never perfect numbers, obviously, each study is going to be slightly different--but even if you double it, assume it's off by a full 50%...that's still 1 in 12 people, by and large, who is a victim in some way of sexual assault.


To use your comparison about "murder culture," in the US city with the highest murder rate, the rate is .86 per 1000 people. The comparison just isn't even close to valid, even if you completely ignore most sexual assault studies and double their numbers.

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/top...r-rate-cities/

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

Murder doesn't affect 10-20% of the population.

Rape and sexual assault do.

Stats?

https://1in6.org/the-1-in-6-statistic/

And actually, I missed on the women. It wasn't 1 in 5, it was 1 in 6, so apologies on that.

https://www.rainn.org/get-informatio...ssault-victims

There are never perfect numbers, obviously, each study is going to be slightly different--but even if you double it, assume it's off by a full 50%...that's still 1 in 12 people, by and large, who is a victim in some way of sexual assault.


To use your comparison about "murder culture," in the US city with the highest murder rate, the rate is .86 per 1000 people. The comparison just isn't even close to valid, even if you completely ignore most sexual assault studies and double their numbers.

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/top...r-rate-cities/

The oft-cited 1 in 5 figure for women in campus has been pretty much debunked, owing to the tiny sample size (two colleges) and very low rate of response (48 per cent). The U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics study, which included grabbing, fondling, and verbal threats, and had a far higher response rate than the debunked 1 in 5 study, found an annual rate of sexual assault of female students of 6 in 1,000. The same study found the annual rate of sexual assault for all females of 2.1 per 1,000, while the rate for males was 0.1 per 1,000.

Clearly there's a wide range of statistics. I tend to give more credibility to the ones that are least political, and use the broadest sources of data.

Regardless, if North America today is a rape culture, then every culture in history has been a rape culture. Which renders the term meaningless. Better to say rape is a crime endemic to all human societies, and one which modern North America and Western Europe have made the most progress in reducing.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Regardless, if North America today is a rape culture, then every culture in history has been a rape culture. Which renders the term meaningless..

Most likely yes, and no it doesn't make the term meaningless.