Flames goaltending is killing our chances at McDavid/Eichel/Hanifin: Discuss

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

This up coming draft is so good that even if we are picking in the 8-10 range, we will be getting a guy comparable to Bennett/Dal Colle/Ehlers. It really is that good of a draft. I would much rather not be a total complete embarrassment that Carolina, Edmonton, Florida and Buffalo are and get a player that is also very good to add to our roster.

I think you are selling Bennett short putting him in the second tier grouping from this last draft. He was ranked 1st by ISS.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Robbob

I think you are selling Bennett short putting him in the second tier grouping from this last draft. He was ranked 1st by ISS.

I think Bennet > Draisaitl. But I also think that the Flames may get a player as good as Bennett drafting later this year.

[the_only_turek_fan]

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014/...ith-a-purpose/

National Post article.

Which is why the Sabres are so appealing right now. Their fans might be in for another long and painful season. But compared to Toronto, where it’s almost always a long and painful season, at least Buffalo is losing with a purpose.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014/...ith-a-purpose/

National Post article.

I hope I'm not the only one who thinks that the sentence "they are losing with a purpose" is disgraceful. Losing should never serve a purpose and should never be desirable and if you look at how the Oilers project has been going, I find it pretty amazing that some media outlets still herald teams for going the tanking route. Having multiple top 5 picks just won't get you anywhere on its own and you can certainly build quality rosters without them.

I for one won't shed a tear if the Flames miss the top 3. There's so many great players available who fill organizational needs ... we'll get a top prospect even if we draft between 5 and 8.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by devo22

I hope I'm not the only one who thinks that the sentence "they are losing with a purpose" is disgraceful. Losing should never serve a purpose and should never be desirable and if you look at how the Oilers project has been going, I find it pretty amazing that some media outlets still herald teams for going the tanking route. Having multiple top 5 picks just won't get you anywhere on its own and you can certainly build quality rosters without them.

I for one won't shed a tear if the Flames miss the top 3. There's so many great players available who fill organizational needs ... we'll get a top prospect even if we draft between 5 and 8.

Nope, you aren't the only one. Buffalo should be disqualified from the top 5 picks imo.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Nope, you aren't the only one. Buffalo should be disqualified from the top 5 picks imo.

The Sabres didn't say it was on purpose. And I don't even think the Post meant it that way. I think they meant it would have a good result, rather than it is deliberate.

Now, if the evidence adds up (and I've seen cases made for the Pens tanking for Mario), then yes, penalize them heavily.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The Sabres didn't say it was on purpose. And I don't even think the Post meant it that way. I think they meant it would have a good result, rather than it is deliberate.

Now, if the evidence adds up (and I've seen cases made for the Pens tanking for Mario), then yes, penalize them heavily.

Does there really need to be cases made for this still? People involved with the team openly admitted they tanked. There was a documentary about it.

[Zach]

So as a fan would you rather just miss the playoffs or 'tank' and get a good pick. Oilers/Leafs/Flames seem to be going for the first option.

[waner]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

No offense, but this is a dumb argument. If we didn't have our best players, we'd be worse? No kidding.

The point was that if the Sabres had better players (ie Gio and Hiller) they would be good. It is talent holding them back not the players turning it on or off.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by Zach

So as a fan would you rather just miss the playoffs or 'tank' and get a good pick. Oilers/Leafs/Flames seem to be going for the first option.

I'd rather cheer for my team to win than cheer for them to lose.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by devo22

I hope I'm not the only one who thinks that the sentence "they are losing with a purpose" is disgraceful. Losing should never serve a purpose and should never be desirable and if you look at how the Oilers project has been going, I find it pretty amazing that some media outlets still herald teams for going the tanking route. Having multiple top 5 picks just won't get you anywhere on its own and you can certainly build quality rosters without them.

I for one won't shed a tear if the Flames miss the top 3. There's so many great players available who fill organizational needs ... we'll get a top prospect even if we draft between 5 and 8.

Totally agree. The league really should have changed the lottery rules this year so, at the very least, the first 3 or first 5 spots are lottery picks. There's way too much emphasis on pulling the plug on one season.

Honestly the system they used for the Crosby lottery should be used every year -- sort of a rolling, weighted average of the last 3 seasons. I'm not crazy about the Colorado - MacKinnon, Philadelphia - JVR, and Montreal - Galchenyuk anomalies any more than I am about Buffalo trading away absolutely everyone and playing for last.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Robbob

I think you are selling Bennett short putting him in the second tier grouping from this last draft. He was ranked 1st by ISS.

Bennett is very good, but those other two guys are also very good in their own right, not quite as good but still good.

There are some really good talents in the picks following the top 5 (assuming Strome is #5).

Three big forwards in Zacha, Crouse and Nicolas Roy all 6-3, other talented forwards in Barzal, Connor, konecny and Sprong. Also Jeremy Roy is a really good D-man, I would be surprised though if he even made it to 8.

So even in the case that the Flames pick 8-10, we should get someone in the same talent range as the top two tiers of forwards from last draft.

[Vinny01]

Buffalo added Moulson, Gionta, Gorges, Mezeros in the offseason. Not massive additions but to me you can't accuse management of deliberately tanking. Nolan is disgraced with his teams performance the only ones that appear to be tanking are the players themselves. Unlike the flames it appears they believe what is written about them in the media instead of motivated to prove them wrong

[Enoch Root]

No one claimed that the Sabres players are turning it off. That isn't the point at all. The NHL is a difficult league to win in. Having veterans to help the young players learn how to be successful is a huge part of the learning curve.

Brodie is almost certainly a better player today than he would be if he didn't have Giordano to learn from. He is at a huge advantage compared to the environment that the young defensemen in Buffalo are in.

Yes, a team is better when they have better players. But prospect development (a large input into getting better players) is substantially enhanced by quality veterans.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Maybe we should make a bet on which team makes the conference finals first?

If that were any kind of a real, fair, or accurate measuring stick I would happily take the bet.

[Regular_John]

Tanking for draft picks is such a flawed course of action. There's just so many variables at play, maybe you don't win the draft lottery, maybe the "generational player" is a dud, or gets injured.

Heck maybe you draft Eric Lindros, he refuses to play for you, you trade him away and you end up being a powerhouse for the next decade after moving to Colorado.

Or maybe you dig your team into such a deep pit of losing that no matter how many #1 draft picks you toss into the hole the team just can't pull itself out, even 8 years later.


Sure, high draft picks have high value in the league, and if you're a non-playoff team you should cash in when you can. But in "tanking" you can cause a lot more damage to your team/organization in the mean time that you've passed the point of diminishing return on those #1's.

Edmonton is no good.

[Vinny01]

So far the Flames have been extremely lucky in terms of their first round picks since the rebuild began. Getting a player like Monahan who can make the NHL at 18 and score 20+ goals is fantastic when picking 6th overall. Then this year they get a player who was the top ranked skater by centra scouting with the 4th pick. The flames likely draft in the top 10 this year and in another deep draft they could still add another strong building block.

[d_phaneuf]

I think there's a huge difference in icing 5+ sub-AHL quality players like Buffalo/Carolina are doing right now, trying to lose on purpose

that's tanking

playing young players and trying to develop them, even if it leads to a top pick, isn't tanking.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

No one claimed that the Sabres players are turning it off. That isn't the point at all. The NHL is a difficult league to win in. Having veterans to help the young players learn how to be successful is a huge part of the learning curve.

Brodie is almost certainly a better player today than he would be if he didn't have Giordano to learn from. He is at a huge advantage compared to the environment that the young defensemen in Buffalo are in.

Yes, a team is better when they have better players. But prospect development (a large input into getting better players) is substantially enhanced by quality veterans.

You make it sound like the Sabres should have just went out and got a Giordano like you can pick guys like that off waivers. We're fortunate to have him. Most teams aren't giving a guy like that away. The assets it would take to aquire a player like that doesn't really make sense for them to give up. No UFA of that calibre is likely signing there. Not sure what they really can do.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

So far the Flames have been extremely lucky in terms of their first round picks since the rebuild began. Getting a player like Monahan who can make the NHL at 18 and score 20+ goals is fantastic when picking 6th overall. Then this year they get a player who was the top ranked skater by centra scouting with the 4th pick. The flames likely draft in the top 10 this year and in another deep draft they could still add another strong building block.

Exactly. If those were the years the Oilers drafted Hall and RNH we would have Brett Connolly and Adam Larsson.