WOW Beta: Warlords of Draenor

[nik-]

Well yeah, when you AE down trash packs for 3 expansions in a row, you sort of don't know how to play properly.

I would love to see people have to do a heroic Shattered Halls level instance to get keyed for raids. Granted, that was before the easy AE tanking.

That place was a nightmare for trash.

[WhiteTiger]

Finished a Heroic Grimrail Depot run earlier (what a great concept/instance) and wow, it was tough. Wiped 3x times on the last 2 bosses, as folks just couldn't figure it out.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by nik-

I would love to see people have to do a heroic Shattered Halls level instance to get keyed for raids. Granted, that was before the easy AE tanking.

I don't remember Shattered Halls being that difficult. Does bring up the fun point of what the hell happened to Kargath? I punched him in the dick in TBC with some 70 blues and some BoH gear. Now without the demon blood, which was supposed to pump him up Hans and Frans style, he went all power of Samson on us and grew some hair which apparently pumps his HP up by about 46 million and now he hits for my TBC full Karazhan Epics health pool.

[nik-]

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=10884

This was pretty tough.

[Blaster86]

I miss attunement

[DoubleK]

I've had an ongoing issue with WOW for a few months now. When I logon and first zone in my framerate goes down to 1fps for about 5~10 mins. I can't even move or see anything at the start. Then it goes to my normal 60 fps.

I have no idea why and can't really find any reference to it on the interwebs.

Any suggestions on how to diagnose/fix?

[Skaloper]

Originally Posted by nik-

Well yeah, when you AE down trash packs for 3 expansions in a row, you sort of don't know how to play properly.

I would love to see people have to do a heroic Shattered Halls level instance to get keyed for raids. Granted, that was before the easy AE tanking.

That place was a nightmare for trash.

Challenge Modes offer some fun trash packs that are nightmares.

[GreenLantern]

Man is LFR ever a joke. 20 minutes, no deaths. And that is apparently a slow run.

On a side note, the Mage buffs seem to be paying off in spades. I was near the top for every boss fight and above average in every trash battle. As far as PvP goes, as Fire, I am at the top or near the top in every match win or lose. The crits are in sane, you basically just rotate instants and cycle in Scorch while kiting to proc more instants. It's a bit of a lame way to play the class as Fireball is essentially useless, but at least we can compete in damage now.

Arcane is apparently still struggling on both fronts though. I think Fire may eventually see a bit of a debuff, maybe crit back down to 10%.

[nik-]

I'm two ilvls from being able to do LFR

[nik-]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

It's more of a single target class. Doesn't really work well with packs.

Mind sear is what I had forgotten about, the cleave ability. I'm still levelling it super slow, after I've done my chores on my warrior, but it's starting to get a little more beastly. I'm enjoying it a little more.

Queued for one instance last night, but got in literally at the last trash pack before the last boss, so I didn't really get to knock any rust off my healing

[Leon]

Tectus is one of the coolest boss fights I've ever done.

Hoping to clear the final two bosses in highmaul this evening. Very neat raid.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

Man is LFR ever a joke. 20 minutes, no deaths. And that is apparently a slow run.

It isn't there as a challenge, or even a "next step" for raiders. Much like MC was, it's there for people who don't have time to raid (or weren't around in the case MC) to see content and not miss out while not turning it into a full time job.

Don't go into the LFR looking for a challenge or as a skill bench-test (or gear if you're a raider, do CMs). It's training wheels for people who don't have time to do it normally.

[nik-]

That's pretty much why I love LFR. I like to see the content, I know it's not the same or as hard, or as rewarding. But I also know that I don't need to put in 15 hours a week to see it either.

Even if I wanted to put that much time into raiding (I don't), I couldn't.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

I miss attunement

I don't miss it at all. What a pain in the ass. People who deserved to be in the new content were being held back by having to do old content to get access. If you were good enough, you should get to play the content. I'm glad they got rid of it.

I think too many people have this skewed perception of what TBC really was to the average person. Dying a TON in heroics, wiping on the enormous amount of trash on the way to Shade in Karazhan, getting rocked by RNG on Malchezaar, never getting past Malugar in Gruul because your raid couldn't coordinate well enough, and if you were lucky your group could clear the trash in SSC to try out Lurker and maybe the trash in TK to see Void Reaver and A'lar. This is what the scrub raider saw in WoW, and that is why they've progressively made the game more accessible, which is the best decision they could have made for the game.

I have no wish to return to the days of being excited that we made it to the first boss of Sunwell after wiping on trash for an hour. If you think the answer is "play with better players", then perhaps you didn't understand the reasons the average person played the game for.

Side note: I was halfway through Trials of the Naaru when Wrath hit. I'm sad I never got the Hand of A'dal title...I really should have finished it when I had the chance.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

I don't miss it at all. What a pain in the ass. People who deserved to be in the new content were being held back by having to do old content to get access. If you were good enough, you should get to play the content. I'm glad they got rid of it.

I think too many people have this skewed perception of what TBC really was to the average person. Dying a TON in heroics, wiping on the enormous amount of trash on the way to Shade in Karazhan, getting rocked by RNG on Malchezaar, never getting past Malugar in Gruul because your raid couldn't coordinate well enough, and if you were lucky your group could clear the trash in SSC to try out Lurker and maybe the trash in TK to see Void Reaver and A'lar. This is what the scrub raider saw in WoW, and that is why they've progressively made the game more accessible, which is the best decision they could have made for the game.

I have no wish to return to the days of being excited that we made it to the first boss of Sunwell after wiping on trash for an hour. If you think the answer is "play with better players", then perhaps you didn't understand the reasons the average person played the game for.

Side note: I was halfway through Trials of the Naaru when Wrath hit. I'm sad I never got the Hand of A'dal title...I really should have finished it when I had the chance.

These are conflicting. The only annoyance with attunements were main changes imo. The reduction in trash in raids is a great thing though.

granted, I saw the key ring as a little badge of honour ... so maybe my perspective on it is a little off.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by nik-

Even if I wanted to put that much time into raiding (I don't), I couldn't.

That's pretty much it. Blizzard is very cognizant of the fact that the player base that launched them to the stratospheric heights they reached at their peak is older and no where near as capable of dedicating the time to the game they once did. They also know they've had trouble collecting new, younger players who don't want to that long grind to get the loot thanks to games like CoD where gratification for what you did is close to instantaneous after a match.

Kill two birds with one stone and make it quicker and more accessible and if for some reason they do get more time down the line, the option for it to be more challenging is there.

Originally Posted by Mazrim

I don't miss it at all. What a pain in the ass. People who deserved to be in the new content were being held back by having to do old content to get access. If you were good enough, you should get to play the content. I'm glad they got rid of it.

If they were good enough, then getting attuned should have been a piece of cake. The point of Heroics was to be the level before you entered raiding. They were supposed to be challenging as a method of preparation.

Originally Posted by Mazrim

I think too many people have this skewed perception of what TBC really was to the average person. Dying a TON in heroics, wiping on the enormous amount of trash on the way to Shade in Karazhan, getting rocked by RNG on Malchezaar, never getting past Malugar in Gruul because your raid couldn't coordinate well enough, and if you were lucky your group could clear the trash in SSC to try out Lurker and maybe the trash in TK to see Void Reaver and A'lar. This is what the scrub raider saw in WoW, and that is why they've progressively made the game more accessible, which is the best decision they could have made for the game.

I have no skew on my perception of TBC. It was more difficult. It was enjoyably because it was more difficult. I don't think I was ever so happy or felt as accomplished then when I got The Sun Eater for my Warrior. It was my first epic and the first one I had researched and knew I needed to take the next step into Karazhan. Your point about raid difficulty is noted, and not wrong but that has nothing to do with attunement. If you couldn't do even Heroics, I am not sure why you would want to raid. If you could do heroics, picking up the scripts in the raid fights wasn't hard even then because it was simply just that. Scripted. Follow the script, don't die. Not every guild was going to be a first day full clear. Most guilds needed to wait for the nerfs to come to finish everything up, but to say it was impossible because attunement was hard... well then you just shouldn't have been raiding back then.

Originally Posted by Mazrim

I have no wish to return to the days of being excited that we made it to the first boss of Sunwell after wiping on trash for an hour. If you think the answer is "play with better players", then perhaps you didn't understand the reasons the average person played the game for.

Actually, my response would be the same response when I ran a guild in Wrath. Practice. Do more heroics. Get better as a guild. Get back to basics and schedule heroics days, keep going back to old raids to keep gearing. Don't push it if you can't do it yet. I didn't stop running Naxx with my guild until after Lich King had been downed. Not because I needed gear, or that many of them did but because we needed the practice. Kept people doing Ulduar, and the two Aspect fights. You're not going to get good at hardcore raiding if you don't put the time in. It was always that way.

[Mazrim]

Sorry, I ended up rambling there. The attunment and raiding challenges were two separate discussions, and I should have been clearer. The attunement I saw was "can your guild actually coordinate to kill these trash packs? Good, here's the boss." and I figured that would be fine for what Blizzard. Fitting it behind some convoluted process only slowed down progression guilds from getting new members up to speed. Sunwell was hard enough that we never cleared it in TBC, isn't that enough of a check rather than some long quest line?

I felt raiding difficulty in general was too high to get people's feet wet. It was quite the jump from the regular game, and it scared many potential players away. We had a decent 10 man group clearing Karazhan with some issues like I mentioned above, but otherwise it was a 2-3 day clear on a regular basis. It was jumping to 25 mans like Gruul, SSC, and TK that really made raiding hell. We had to carry dead weight to get our numbers up, and trash and fights like Malugar really exploited that weakness.

I know at least on the server I play on, this was a common problem for many guilds back in TBC. At the tail end of the expansion, we grouped up with another guild to actually make progress in SSC and TK and even try out BT, but that was after attunement was dropped so the fights had been nerfed.

The addition of 10 mans to every raid in Wrath was awesome. The guild I was in made slow but steady progression throughout the entire expansion. Ulduar is still my favorite raid of all time.

[nik-]

Sorry to say, but a 2-3 day clear for Karazhan sounds like a pretty poor group. That should take a few hours.

[Raekwon]

Originally Posted by Leon

Tectus is one of the coolest boss fights I've ever done.

Hoping to clear the final two bosses in highmaul this evening. Very neat raid.

Yeah, Tectus is one of the more fun fights I have done, We have 2 bosses left in normal also and we have beat heroic Kargath. Healed for Kargath and ran Frost mage for everything else.

Pally ilevel 635
Mage ilevel 640

I'm really enjoying the expansion so far, I'm finally finding some downtime with garrisons etc.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by nik-

Sorry to say, but a 2-3 day clear for Karazhan sounds like a pretty poor group. That should take a few hours.

When Kara first came out that was not unusual for many guilds. Everyone still needed lots of gear before you could do it one night.

As for the group I raided with, we didn't ask for big applications for new invites to the guild with examples of skills, we only wanted people to be fun to hang out with. It wasn't a job, it was a game, so if we wiped a few times on a boss, who cared? It's too bad our options were extremely limited outside of Karazhan for a more casual raiding guild. Everything was a brick wall as I had noted.