U.S. Debt discussion

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Government jobs contribute to the economy at a loss or else the government could just hire the 16 million unemployed and pay their wages with the taxes generate through their purchasing power. Non government jobs are what pays the bills.

Sure you could look at it that way.

Or you could look at in such a way like Stats Canada providing a service that many businesses across the country depend on to stay competitive.

I'm all for smaller government, but you can't deny that there are many 'essential' jobs that the government does.

[Yasa]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

It is beyond mind boggling how there are no tax increases in this plan. The US is so hopeless.

Yeah. Hopelessly devoted to...debt.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Rathji

The people working in those jobs, and in industries that support those jobs don't get paid? Because as far as I am concerned, that's all that is required to 'contribute to the economy", but I am not an econ wiz so maybe there is some other secret requirement.

Well you have to understand I'm envisioning a perfect society where everybody wants to pay their share, so people searching for tax loopholes would be redundant. I'm not saying that this society will ever exist but I like to think that it is the goal to strive for.

In our society the law works on an adversarial system so I can't blame someone looking for tax loopholes but sometimes I'd like to see the richest backing off from their greed because it seems that these loopholes have been created by legislators who have been bought and paid for by these super rich.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Azure

Sure you could look at it that way.

Or you could look at in such a way like Stats Canada providing a service that many businesses across the country depend on to stay competitive.

I'm all for smaller government, but you can't deny that there are many 'essential' jobs that the government does.

Yes there are many essential government jobs and it would be foolish to cut away without considering the impact. But there is room to cut. The size of government has ballooned in the last ten years. It is highly unlikely that all those increases were essential.

[Shasta Beast]

That country needs to get out of a two party system badly. Too large and complex to put up with this partisan bullsh*t.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Shasta Beast

That country needs to get out of a two party system badly. Too large and complex to put up with this partisan bullsh*t.

It has, there are now 4 parties, Democrat, Sane Republican, Tea Party Republican and bat #### crazy religeous right republican. Of course the last two tend to overlap some.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by SeeBass

What they h##l are you talking about?

So my dad who was a forest ranger, that was goverment paid, and helped control the fishing volume so there would always be fish that would bring in tourists to the regional lodges. So people in remote areas could add to the economy with their service jobs and build more lodges and fill hotels. He didn't have a real job? You don't see a pattern of employment that comes from a balanced society?

Really? Great work, well thought out post.

Yeah, I knew I was going to step on some toes with that post but you have to remember I said

A necessary drain in a lot of cases but still a drain

.

I could probably go down to the warf and buy a salmon directly off a fisherman for a lot cheaper (probably illegal though) than I could after it goes through the various middlemen and government regulators. I'm not saying these people aren't necessary in a modern society but they aren't the primary producers and some could be considered a drain with little redeeming value. I think being a Forest Ranger is a cool job.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Yes there are many essential government jobs and it would be foolish to cut away without considering the impact. But there is room to cut. The size of government has ballooned in the last ten years. It is highly unlikely that all those increases were essential.

If only there were data for this...

5% over the last decade... if you're counting at home, that's 0.5% annualized. Percentage-wise, that's roughly half the growth of the population at large.

The horror.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Government jobs contribute to the economy at a loss or else the government could just hire the 16 million unemployed and pay their wages with the taxes generate through their purchasing power. Non government jobs are what pays the bills.

Because that's exactly what I was saying...

Explain how Person A working to Lockheed who is earning a paycheck on a govt contract is somehow contributing less to the economy than a similarly employed Person B working on a non-government contract.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Well you have to understand I'm envisioning a perfect society where everybody wants to pay their share, so people searching for tax loopholes would be redundant. I'm not saying that this society will ever exist but I like to think that it is the goal to strive for.

In our society the law works on an adversarial system so I can't blame someone looking for tax loopholes but sometimes I'd like to see the richest backing off from their greed because it seems that these loopholes have been created by legislators who have been bought and paid for by these super rich.

I think it is strange that you replied to my post which claimed government funded jobs did actually contribute to the economy, with a post about tax loopholes generated by lobbyist supported elected officials.

Perhaps there is a communication breakdown.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Azure

Sure you could look at it that way.

Or you could look at in such a way like Stats Canada providing a service that many businesses across the country depend on to stay competitive.

I'm all for smaller government, but you can't deny that there are many 'essential' jobs that the government does.

The nine most fear words in the English language....

Hi! I'm from the government. I'm here to help.

That should be taken to heart by any sensible tax payer. Government is the king of mission creep. Like the Americans in Somalia. There to help, then to kill warlords....get into serious street fighting....etc...TROUBLE.

Government provides very important services. As in the case of Seebass' Dad. Unfortunately, they then need to tell you what underwear to wear while fishing and how much ketchup to use on the fish.

[afc wimbledon]

Its funny there is a whole continent with little or no goverment interference, almost no taxes or services to speak of, and yet somehow Africa isn't doing so well.

[pepper24]

George W. Bush and the Republican led Congress and Senate made this mess by cutting taxes while increasing spending with 2 wars. I was working in the US before and after the tax cuts. It was nice having extra dollars in the bank after the cuts but cutting taxes while increasing spending is reckless and short-sighted. That was my sense at the time and it proved correct.

I saw on one of the US news networks that half of the current deficit is from Dubya's 8 years in office. Assuming this is correct, that's insane how 8 years of irresponsibility can affect generations to come.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Rathji

Because that's exactly what I was saying...

Explain how Person A working to Lockheed who is earning a paycheck on a govt contract is somehow contributing less to the economy than a similarly employed Person B working on a non-government contract.

Sure everything that person A contributes to the economy was given to it by the Government who at some point has to take the money out of the economy through taxation. If the government borrows money to pay person A then they will have to take whatever interest is owed as well. Person A also consumes a portion of the money he is paid on things that don't provide a return for the government. Exemptions, deductions, credits, loop holes, ect. also work against the government back a full return on their investment. These might belong to person A or person B who offers the service or product to person A.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Its funny there is a whole continent with little or no goverment interference, almost no taxes or services to speak of, and yet somehow Africa isn't doing so well.

So did American business expansion and success make America wealthy or did American regulation and taxation make America the country it is today?

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Sure everything that person A contributes to the economy was given to it by the Government who at some point has to take the money out of the economy through taxation. If the government borrows money to pay person A then they will have to take whatever interest is owed as well. Person A also consumes a portion of the money he is paid on things that don't provide a return for the government. Exemptions, deductions, credits, loop holes, ect. also work against the government back a full return on their investment. These might belong to person A or person B who offers the service or product to person A.

Ok, so what is your solution?

Would it be to fire all the people who work in these jobs that have a 'reduced impact" on the economy, so they are contributing nothing? I may have to look up the definition of reduced, but I am sure that it is more than nothing.

Or is your solution that suddenly, all these corporations and rich people will make more jobs now that that are paying less taxes? If so, the amount of Taxes GE paid last year says "Hi".

I am sure there is another solution that makes sense to you, and I would love to hear it.

[Yasa]

My solution is to adopt the mefo bill system. Then when the US loses WWII, citizens can use that money to heat their houses.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

So did American business expansion and success make America wealthy or did American regulation and taxation make America the country it is today?

A healthy mix of business expansion and government regulation have all contributed in making America technically bankrupt.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Sure everything that person A contributes to the economy was given to it by the Government who at some point has to take the money out of the economy through taxation. If the government borrows money to pay person A then they will have to take whatever interest is owed as well. Person A also consumes a portion of the money he is paid on things that don't provide a return for the government. Exemptions, deductions, credits, loop holes, ect. also work against the government back a full return on their investment. These might belong to person A or person B who offers the service or product to person A.

This is a rather painful contortion of basic econ.

The money government lends out is not returned if and only if people park it in a non-taxable account. Forever.

Otherwise, despite your worry about loopholes, credits, deductions, that money still goes into the economy in various forms... If someone 'saves' $1000 through a deduction, and they spend it, then they pay 7% sales tax on purchases, subsequently a 15-25% federal income tax is paid by Company A who records that purchase on revenue, another 15-35% federal income tax paid by the employee of the Company A. Add to that state income taxes...

This is why multiplier effects are calculated. The government gets more than a dollar-for-dollar impact*.



* Note that this is why some claimed that the stimulus would spiral inflation out of control. Smart economists realized that because of near-zero interest rates, the relationship was no longer valid. They were dead-on correct.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Its funny there is a whole continent with little or no goverment interference, almost no taxes or services to speak of, and yet somehow Africa isn't doing so well.

You don't know much about Africa then......

Africa for the most part is controlled by ruthless dictators, multi-national corporations, the U.N. and of course the I.M.F. (loans) running their finance/economy....

That is a whole lot of interference...

My thoughts on taxes and government jobs.....governments are notorious for not being able to manage money/people properly, and tons of waste and even corruption usually results.

The private sector tends to run their businesses more efficiently from a personnel and finance standpoint, and is much more productive. Lower taxes is always better. I was under the impression that when you increase taxes on people, you tend to get less tax revenue, because the unemployed/under-employed just don't bother to pay.