[Update: Approved] First Leg of the Green Line LRT

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Vedder

Yes, that’s the point. People could be answering the original poll without appropriate context. Changing the framing changes the answer, and therefore these numbers aren’t that informative.

You are literally describing how to create a biased poll.

[Vedder]

Originally Posted by Torture

You are literally describing how to create a biased poll.

I'm just suggesting that the original poll was biased. The questions provide information about the benefits of the project without any consideration for cost and risk. Obviously this will lead to more favorable results from people who aren't familiar with the trade-offs.

[Muta]

Love this project; really hope it gets approved and construction starts ASAP.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Fire

Yeah that sounds like a lot of BS to me. Maybe it will result 20000 new jobs along the green line but result in 20000 lost jobs elsewhere in the city.

While I think the 20k number is a bit of a farce, those jobs wouldn’t just vanish from everywhere else. If you create one new construction job and someone leaves their previous job to take it, you have still created one new job, as that other position then likely needs to be filled.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

While I think the 20k number is a bit of a farce, those jobs wouldn’t just vanish from everywhere else. If you create one new construction job and someone leaves their previous job to take it, you have still created one new job, as that other position then likely needs to be filled.

Of course the issue with all government projections on jobs is that new projects don't mean all new jobs. Will the GC go out and hire X amount of tradesman, or are they just shuffled from projects that finish up? There will be a solid mix of both.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Vedder

I'm just suggesting that the original poll was biased. The questions provide information about the benefits of the project without any consideration for cost and risk. Obviously this will lead to more favorable results from people who aren't familiar with the trade-offs.

OK, here's the other side's biased poll from the wealthy "alternative plan" group.

69% in favour of the current green line project before they started "framing" the issue to get the answer they wanted. I think it's safe to say that the majority of Calgarians support the green line.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1271468024227340288

[corporatejay]

Green line, great infrastructure project or greatest infrastructure project?

[tvp2003]

Sounds like some revisions have been proposed to what was approved by Committee earlier this month:

Some changes have been made to what council’s Green Line committee considered earlier this month. Now, city councillors will consider breaking the transit expansion into three segments: the southeast leg roughly from the Elbow River to Shepard, the tunnel beneath the Beltline and downtown, and the bridge over the Bow River and surface train up to 16th Avenue N.

If approved, the plan would see the city start the process of hiring a company to build the section of the Green Line that crosses the river and moves through Crescent Heights. But they would hold off on signing the contract until construction of the downtown section “has sufficiently advanced” to show that the project is staying within its $4.9-billion capital budget.

The recommendations involve a reconsideration, meaning at least 10 of Calgary’s 15 council members must vote in favour. Nenshi said that should be no issue for the final approval.

Coun. Jeff Davison has in recent weeks questioned plans to build the portion of the project over the Bow River, saying he’d rather see “one good line” built from Shepard to Eau Claire while the city takes more time to look at the river crossing.

But on Tuesday, he wrote on Twitter that he thinks the city’s new plans are “a big improvement.”

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...-in-final-vote

I think this is a step in the right direction. I don't think anyone wants to kill the Green Line, but a more nuanced approach is warranted IMO, especially seeing the project evolve and circumstances change over time.

[Fuzz]

So the north segment is now dependent on cost overruns on the other 2? Why even pretend they are going to do it then? Of course there will be cost overruns on a tunnel through downtown. That's a guarantee. What a cluster####. It started as a train for the North, and now the North will get nothing. Sutherland has pretty mcuh stolen this project over the years.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

So the north segment is now defendant on cost overruns on the other 2? Why even pretend they are going to do it then? Of course there will be cost overruns on a tunnel through downtown. That's a guarantee. What a cluster####. It started as a train for the North, and now the North will get nothing. Sutherland has pretty mcuh stolen this project over the years.

As I understand it, the later vote to cross the river would require a super majority (10 votes) to cancel. So in some sense, unless there's massive cost overruns or issues it is still likely to move forward. If this is what it takes to get enough of council on board I'm okay with it, although I'd prefer that they just approve crossing the river to 16th and get it done with now.

Also worth noting that the review of crossing the Bow will be right before the October 2021 election so it will be very political.
We probably shouldn't be surprised council is kicking the can down the road when this project has been ongoing for a decade....

We'll know more this afternoon, they kick off the discussion at 3:45 and will likely vote today.

[Northendzone]

so in the midst of a lot of bad news econimic news for the country, province and city - Calgary is building a new arena and multi-billion dollar c-train line.

good times for construction companies i guess.

will be interesting to see how history summarizes this group of city fathers

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

so in the midst of a lot of bad news econimic news for the country, province and city - Calgary is building a new arena and multi-billion dollar c-train line.

good times for construction companies i guess.

will be interesting to see how history summarizes this group of city fathers

Do you know what the economy was like when the first C-Train line and the Saddledome were built?

Plus, the Round-Up Centre (now BMO), the new City Hall, and the Centre for the Performing Arts (now Arts Commons) were all built in that same time period.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

so in the midst of a lot of bad news econimic news for the country, province and city - Calgary is building a new arena and multi-billion dollar c-train line.

good times for construction companies i guess.

will be interesting to see how history summarizes this group of city fathers

labour and materials are cheaper. If this was built in 2006 the costs would have been astronomical.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

So the north segment is now dependent on cost overruns on the other 2? Why even pretend they are going to do it then? Of course there will be cost overruns on a tunnel through downtown. That's a guarantee. What a cluster####. It started as a train for the North, and now the North will get nothing. Sutherland has pretty mcuh stolen this project over the years.

I don't think you can blame any one councilor; I would put most of the blame on the Green Line planners who badly under-estimated the costs in 2015 and then picked the SE over the NC in 2017 when the line was cut in half.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by accord1999

I don't think you can blame any one councilor; I would put most of the blame on the Green Line planners who badly under-estimated the costs in 2015 and then picked the SE over the NC in 2017 when the line was cut in half.

I live north of the river, but let's be fair, the SE portion is easier as the city owns more of the required land and they have the maintenance facility at Shepard. They still need to acquire a lot of the land to go up centre street.

Also, Keating has been advocating for the green line in the SE for years. The North hasn't really had that voice at city council (until Gondek, maybe)

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Torture

I live north of the river, but let's be fair, the SE portion is easier as the city owns more of the required land and they have the maintenance facility at Shepard. They still need to acquire a lot of the land to go up centre street.

Also, Keating has been advocating for the green line in the SE for years. The North hasn't really had that voice at city council (until Gondek, maybe)

That's kind of been part of the problem with how this has gone.
"Build it where we can, not where we should" is a terrible way to plan infrastructure.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

That's kind of been part of the problem with how this has gone.
"Build it where we can, not where we should" is a terrible way to plan infrastructure.

True, at one point this was going up nose creek which was the ultimate "where we can, not where we should" so this alignment is miles ahead of that.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Torture

True, at one point this was going up nose creek which was the ultimate "where we can, not where we should" so this alignment is miles ahead of that.

But by moving to the more centrally located alignment, it was penalized in terms of readiness and lost to the SE, despite the supposed need for the Green Line to skip BRT to handle the ridership capacity needs of Centre Street North in the next several yaers.

And if you trace the SE route from 26th Ave SE, Highfield, Lynnwood-Millican, Ogden and South Hill, you find essentially a transit wasteland comparable to the wasteland of Nosecreek.

[Torture]

Vote is 14-1 and the Green Line Is A Go!!

[getbak]

Farkas gonna fark.