Russia invades Ukraine

[81MC]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Do you think these tanks are just out for a leisurely country drive? I lost my empathy for the Russian's when I see Ukrainian woman and children bombed in their beds.

‘Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor, yeah’

There’s nothing but tragedy here. 18 year old kids operating equipment probably don’t get much say into the targets of their military.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I know they want the oligarch to apply pressure on Putin, but I do want to understand the legal mechanism for the seizures. It does seem crazy that Abramovich loses all he invested in buying Chelsea, because they are forcing a sale and not letting him touch the proceeds of the sale.

Imagine if the Flames had a Russian owner, the team would be sanctioned right now. The Flames wouldn't be able to participate in trade deadline coming up or sell new tickets.

It's a part of an effort to stop the war. Like seizing Russian bank's assets. Or like blocking Russian credit cards. Or even like restricting your airspace. Sure it's your airspace, but there were deals on place where Russian airlines had paid for passage. None of it seems to be legal, yet it's obviously nothing compared to horrendous crimes that Russia is doing right now. You do whatever it takes to stop people dying, whether it's legal or not is almost irrelevant. If I could do something illegal that would stop the war, I would do it in a heartbeat

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by woob

I find the whole online aspect of this war really tough to process. You see maps of daily Russian troop movements, retired/current military offering paragraph upon paragraph of strategy notes and thoughts, live videos of carnage. It's really quite alarming at times and, frankly, desensitizing to the absolute madness and devastation of war. I've stopped watching any videos and mostly read this thread to make sure I'm aware of what's happening and reading the personal accounts of people like HW, etc.

I struggle with wanting to keep myself informed and wanting to almost keep it at arm's length, so to speak, as I feel like consuming all this media/talking heads/imagery on it is somehow disrespectful to those living it. I don't know, probably just blabbering on here.

You aren’t blabbing at all.

At the outset I found myself consuming all the information possible. Essentially in real time.

The very real problem with that is war is brutal. It is horrific. It is gruesome. And this isn’t some Hollywood movie you can peddle away as an action flick.

It’s real life. It’s right in front of you. It’s heart wrenching.

So while we certainly aren’t there and we are not experiencing the trauma those people are in person, subjecting ourself to that trauma, even at a distance, can take a very real toll on your psyche.

Stepping back from the details while remaining informed on the aggregate has been important for me.

Otherwise I might not sleep again. Videos of kids my childrens age being put through what we are witnessing is…. Words don’t express it meaningfully enough.

[Manhattanboy]

The Russians have bombed, in the thousands, homes, apartment buildings, universities and schools, hospitals and seniors living facilities.

I always thought Putin was a thug but I never imagined he would cause this level of human suffering by committing war crimes on this scale.

[flylock shox]

One of the better messages I've seen on the war so far, published in the Globe:

For days now I have been glued to the news about Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, reminiscing and thinking about how history keeps repeating itself. It was around this time of year, almost 20 years ago, that we were the terrified people, desperate for a haven from brutal bombing in Baghdad. We Iraqis know firsthand the pain of wars: It’s in our children’s eyes, and inscribed on our minds and souls.

Some might think that Ukraine is not Iraq – that Ukraine is more “developed” – and to some degree, they would be right. But war is war and fear is fear, regardless of geography or history, society or technology, ethnicity or nationality. To me, it is nonsense to say that the world is siding with Ukraine because of how Ukrainians look; that promotes unnecessary hatred and division, when all refugees are simply people who have been caught in the crossfire. No person – no matter where they are from, or what they look like – wants to flee their homes.


World leaders have been quick to declare their support for Ukraine. But as I watch heartbreaking scenes of people fleeing with whatever belongings they can carry, I am mostly thinking about Ukraine’s mothers. The woman who just wants to feed her hungry children, or who is trying to figure out what to tell them when warplanes roar over their neighbourhood. She’ll have to answer questions she could not have imagined: Which is worse for attacks, daytime or nighttime? How will they come out from this tragedy unbroken? I wonder if she is even able to contemplate the mundane, such as sending her kids to school or whether they have brushed their teeth...

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It doesn’t help that we cheerfully accept - no, enthusiastically solicit - investment by crooked oligarchs from Saudia Arabia, China, and other regimes just as odious as Putin’s Russia.

The difference is that Putin's Russia is actively bombing another country. It's killing hundreds everyday and displace millions. Saudi and China don't. It has nothing to do with Russia being authoritarian. USA was a democracy yet they bombed Iraq for no reason. The reason why oligarchs assets are being seized have nothing to do with them did anything wrong per se. It's being seized to help stop Putin. We don't retroactively claim that those oligarchs are dirty, bad, illegal or anything. We attack them to stop the war.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by Pointman

The difference is that Putin's Russia is actively bombing another country. It's killing hundreds everyday and displace millions. Saudi and China don't. It has nothing to do with Russia being authoritarian. USA was a democracy yet they bombed Iraq for no reason. The reason why oligarchs assets are being seized have nothing to do with them did anything wrong per se. It's being seized to help stop Putin. We don't retroactively claim that those oligarchs are dirty, bad, illegal or anything. We attack them to stop the war.

Never mind.

Stay safe everyone.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by surferguy

Does anybody else struggle with these videos? I understand them but I do have a tough time considering I’m watching the death of people. Perhaps I just want to believe that even the soldiers from Russia are all innocent in this as well - pawns being sent to their death in a needless battle. It a bit ludicrous that we get to watch on our phone their demise in a carefully curated clips set to some benign suspenseful stock audio.

When I see pictures of Ukrainian casualties it makes me feel sick, but Russian deaths don't affect me at all. This is 3 weeks into the conflict now, the Russian solders still fighting don't have any more excuses. I'll quietly cheer every video or news article showing their losses in hopes that it tips the scales for Ukrainian freedom

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by surferguy

Does anybody else struggle with these videos? I understand them but I do have a tough time considering I’m watching the death of people. Perhaps I just want to believe that even the soldiers from Russia are all innocent in this as well - pawns being sent to their death in a needless battle. It a bit ludicrous that we get to watch on our phone their demise in a carefully curated clips set to some benign suspenseful stock audio.

I agree completely. It's hard to watch for me as well. Reading some of the angry and blood thirsty commentary online has been a bit troubling for me too.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Pointman

The difference is that Putin's Russia is actively bombing another country. It's killing hundreds everyday and displace millions. Saudi and China don't. It has nothing to do with Russia being authoritarian. USA was a democracy yet they bombed Iraq for no reason. The reason why oligarchs assets are being seized have nothing to do with them did anything wrong per se. It's being seized to help stop Putin. We don't retroactively claim that those oligarchs are dirty, bad, illegal or anything. We attack them to stop the war.

Saudi does, that's what they are doing in the Yeman

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I get that the world is mad at Russia, but these sanctions against the oligarchs are odd to me. And seizing yachts and #### just seems illegal. What claim does Germany have against the yacht of some dude because his home country invaded a different (non-Germany) country? Maybe I just don't understand the money entanglements.

Abramovich apparently started making lots of money when Yeltsin was president. He bought Chelsea back in 2003. Since then, we've mostly had two decades of the world embracing Russia. They hosted the Winter Olympics and the World Cup. But now that they've invaded Ukraine, we're retroactively saying it was bad all along? I'm not saying it#wasn't#bad all along, just that the world didn't seem to care and Russia has been fully integrated into the world economy (until now). It's odd that we're going back and saying that anyone made money there - no matter how long ago - is now a criminal and must be punished by other countries because Putin invaded Ukraine.


The sanctioned oligarchs made their money through kleptocracy, but they stole from the Russian people. Maybe banking laws allow Germany and England to seize assets, but the oligarchs have been flaunting their wealth throughout Europe for decades so I don't understand why Putin invading Ukraine made them act on their wealth. It does seem crazy that Roman loses all he invested in buying Chelsea, because they are forcing a sale and not letting him touch the proceeds of the sale.

Oligarchs store Putins wealth in return Putin makes sure their companies and goods are prioritized. Basically they launder his money and goods. Basically they hold alot of his funds like a bank.
Like an arrangement you hold 500 million of my dollars I make sure your your construction company gets all the high profile jobs and I don't kill you and seize your assets.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by surferguy

Does anybody else struggle with these videos? I understand them but I do have a tough time considering I’m watching the death of people. Perhaps I just want to believe that even the soldiers from Russia are all innocent in this as well - pawns being sent to their death in a needless battle. It a bit ludicrous that we get to watch on our phone their demise in a carefully curated clips set to some benign suspenseful stock audio.

Don't have a problem at all. This is what just following orders that cause death and destruction with no good reason. This isn't the same as following a health order for the sake of saving life's in our society. Imagine if a whole regiment stood together and just said no? I don't see these as a tragedy. I see this and think " That's one less corrupt soul to kill the truly innocent.

[PeteMoss]

I see Russia is going to release a list of people they will sanction. I assume they will put hunter Biden on there to ignite their qanon/Maga followers.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

One of the better messages I've seen on the war so far, published in the Globe:

I personally equate this war more to Iraq war 1, where Saddam invaded Kuwait, than Iraq war 2. The world leaders automatically jumped to Kuwait’s side of the conflict jn the same way that they are with Ukraine this time. That in no way defends or justifies what happened with Iraq war 2, where there certainly was not the same global support for it.

Either way, the suffering of the innocent people in every war is a tragedy, no matter if they are Ukrainian, Iraqi, Kuwaiti, etc. The people fleeing these conflicts deserve our sympathy, no matter their nationality, skin color, or religion. Even if they supported or voted for the leader, they didn’t ask for outright war and the human suffering that comes with it.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Pointman

The difference is that Putin's Russia is actively bombing another country. It's killing hundreds everyday and displace millions. Saudi and China don't.

The war in Yemen has killed over 350k people, mostly civilians, and displaced millions more.

Alarmed by the rise of a group they believed to be backed militarily by regional Shia power and rival Iran, Saudi Arabia and eight other mostly Sunni Arab states began an air campaign aimed at defeating the Houthis, ending Iranian influence in Yemen and restoring Mr Hadi's government.

The coalition received logistical and intelligence support from the US, UK and France.

At the start of the war Saudi officials forecast that it would last only a few weeks. But six years of military stalemate have followed…

In December 2020, it reported that the conflict had caused an estimated 233,000 deaths*, including 131,000 from indirect causes such as lack of food, health services and infrastructure.

Tens of thousands of civilians have been killed or wounded as a direct result of the fighting, including more than 10,000 children.

Another monitoring group, the Yemen Data Project, had meanwhile attributed 8,780 civilian deaths to Saudi-led coalition air strikes.

UN experts say all parties to the conflict may have committed war crimes.

Four million people have been forced to flee their homes and more than 20.7 million - 71% of the population - are in need of some form of humanitarian assistance or protection for their survival.

They include 5 million who the UN says are on the brink of famine, and almost 50,000 who are already experiencing famine-like conditions.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29319423

PGA golfers were recently falling all over themselves in their haste to join a Saudi golf league with big prize money. So yes, we in the West seem remarkably selective in which atrocities we get worked into a collective outrage over, and which we pretty much ignore.

* That number has now reached 377,000 dead.

[Geraldsh]

Could it be Yemen lacks the level of social media/technology that has put Ukraine in our lives? Also no doubt every Canadian has at least one friend of Ukrainian origin(and proud of it). I have some middle eastern acquaintances but no idea what nationality.

[Itse]

The Yemen conflict is unfortunately kind of a perfect example of a conflict that's just not going to be in the news much.

1. It's complicated, a long story, and where do you even start.

Do you start at the start of the civil war in 2014, or the revolution of 2011, or the 2009 South Yemen insurgency, or the mostly concurrent 2004- Houthi insurgency, or 1994 Yemeni Civil war... You get the idea.

2. There's no good guys. Houthi movement is a little bit more democratic and "pro-people", but the words "death to America, curse to the jews, death to Israel" are right in their slogan so... The legal government on the other hand keeps committing war crimes by ruthlessly bombing refugees and other civilian targets. And of course Al-Qaeda is in the mix.

3. It's mostly boring, sporadic small scale warfare. Lots of pictures of suffering refugees, not a lot in the way of dramatic battles.

4. Larger implications are unclear. What would happen if one side or the other wins?

5. It's all about non-white non-Christians speaking an incomprehensible language. Let's face it, it's much harder for us to care about something like that.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Itse

The Yemen conflict is unfortunately kind of a perfect example of a conflict that's just not going to be in the news much.

1. It's complicated, a long story, and where do you even start.

Do you start at the start of the civil war in 2014, or the revolution of 2011, or the 2009 South Yemen insurgency, or the mostly concurrent 2004- Houthi insurgency, or 1994 Yemeni Civil war... You get the idea.

2. There's no good guys. Houthi movement is a little bit more democratic and "pro-people", but the words "death to America, curse to the jews, death to Israel" are right in their slogan so... The legal government on the other hand keeps committing war crimes by ruthlessly bombing refugees and other civilian targets. And of course Al-Qaeda is in the mix.

3. It's mostly boring, sporadic small scale warfare. Lots of pictures of suffering refugees, not a lot in the way of dramatic battles.

4. Larger implications are unclear. What would happen if one side or the other wins?

5. It's all about non-white non-Christians speaking an incomprehensible language. Let's face it, it's much harder for us to care about something like that.

Exactly.

Sorry but the Houthis were just classified by the UN last week or the week before as a terrorist organization and have been launching bombs, drones, rockets etc. into Saudi Arabia and it’s border cities, towns and villages for about 6 years or so. Meanwhile they just launched a massive attack / explosion into Dubai / UAE about 6 weeks ago.

The Saudis, UAE, Kuwait, I think Lebanon and a few others are in a group called the Arab coalition. They support the UN backed and democratically elected government of Yemen. The Houthis started a wild violent uprising to regain their own country but essentially at the behest of Iran. Yemen is a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Yemen is a very complicated situation and it’s not easy whatsoever to just point and say “these are the good guys” and “these are the bad guys”. Sorry, it’s not that simple and there’s plenty of history and context lacking in these criticisms of why the west supports Saudi Arabia and its partners.

Sometimes geopolitics means partnering with groups that don’t align 100% with your views. That’s pretty much been geopolitics since the dawn of time.

What would the US or Canada do if there was a random group on the border just firing rockets and bombs into their country? You think they’d just sit back and take it? Come on now.

[the_only_turek_fan]

Ok serious question, what is the US/EU going to do here as sanctions are not really working.

The fear of escalating a war with Russia is becoming a less and less acceptable answer.

[Mr.Coffee]

Nothing.

You don’t risk 80-90mm lives in nuclear war for Ukraine.

Sorry, I know it’s callous, harsh whatever you want to call it, but you do what you can do with sanctioning and hope for the best.