2016 NHL Draft

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by dammage79

What have the Flames said to let you believe that Brown is their guy? Or any player for that matter. Everything that is leading you to believe Brown is a top 5 pick is fans on a forum aping lists conjured up by media types "polling NHL scouts" and averaging things out. Even then the only person who I see as really high on Brown...like Pierre Maguire loving Phaneuf level of hype is Craig Button. It's as out of line as the McKeens guy putting McLeod 3rd on their list.

What I love about this iteration of Flames management is that they're steel traps and only let Conroy off the leash when they feel comfortable they're not giving too much away.

While I do think that "Brown is their guy" is pure speculation, based on nothing, I do appreciate hearing from those that view these prospects on a regular basis.
Curious as to whether truedetective watched the U18s? I thought Brown was a really dynamic player, someone definitely noticeable, with a seemingly high motor. Was that not the case in the OHL?

[GreenLantern2814]

With three 2nd round picks, I'm betting that's where Treliving goes for size. If he's still available at 6, Clayton Keller better be a Flame.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

With three 2nd round picks, I'm betting that's where Treliving goes for size. If he's still available at 6, Clayton Keller better be a Flame.

That's not what the Flames will really need it though. Their bottom 6 - on the team now and with the prospects within in the organization - are good for size. Flames need to get bigger in their top 6, and you don't often find those outside of the 1st round.

Big guys who can skate, who have above average skills and who have good IQ are all snapped up quickly. In the 2nd round, they start having more question marks:

"He skates fast, but no scoring upside."
"Good hands, but does everything at a slow pace."
"Really good shot, not a bad skater, but he never knows where to go on the ice to make use of his gifts."

Stuff like that. Go outside the 2nd round, and you start seeing one nice quality only - and that may just be size and not much else.

I think people have to think of it from a different viewpoint at times. Sure, Keller is dynamic and can score, but is he really going to help the Flames win - a team that doesn't seem to have an issue scoring goals? Will he make the Flames a more difficult team to play against? Also, how much will translate to the NHL?

If you take a guy with a slightly lower offensive ceiling, he still may be the better scorer in the NHL. His game might translate better. Or, it will provide the Flames with a different kind of threat that a coach can use. Say, another team is built like Calgary with smaller but very mobile and smart defencemen - you want to bang pucks in deep and get a cycle going. Playing off the rush is probably not going to be as effective against good puck-movers. Maybe the Flames really need a hard-nosed guy with hands to attack the net as they aren't getting as many 2nd and 3rd chances as other teams.

I think you have to balance a team. 12 Gaudreau forwards might sure be fun to watch, but not sure how that would translate.

With that being said, I do think the Flames can grab another sub 5'10" player as long as his skill is first class, but I don't imagine you can look to the 2nd round and think you can find enough talent in the big bodies to surround your smaller players in the top 6.

[Table 5]

Every time I watch Clayton Keller hilights, all I see is Johnny Gaudreau 2.0. The guy has the same type of imagination and shiftiness...and from what I see, perhaps a better shot.

He'd be somewhat redundant on this team, and I'd still much prefer to add a bigger guy like Dubois, but that type of skill sure is fun to watch.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Keller'd be somewhat redundant on this team

Not really. Bennett needs a line mate. Our 2nd power play unit needs an offensive coordinator.

He'd only be redundant if you tried to play Gaudreau/Keller together. This is hockey, even the best star forwards only play twenty minutes a night out of sixty. That's still 2/3rds of the game where they're on the bench not contributing.

[868904]

Originally Posted by getbak

Getzlaf was drafted in 2003. Burke was still in Vancouver in 2003.

Interesting that Burke drafted Kesler in 2003 after seeing him play one game, while watching their prospect RJ Umberger. Kesler was probably the opposite of Getzlaf, in that the guy is all intensity with a non-stop motor.

In that sense, maybe Brown won't be that high on the Flames' list, same for Nylander. Tkachuk and Dubois would have Burke's vote for sure.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

That's not what the Flames will really need it though. Their bottom 6 - on the team now and with the prospects within in the organization - are good for size. Flames need to get bigger in their top 6, and you don't often find those outside of the 1st round.

Big guys who can skate, who have above average skills and who have good IQ are all snapped up quickly. In the 2nd round, they start having more question marks:

"He skates fast, but no scoring upside."
"Good hands, but does everything at a slow pace."
"Really good shot, not a bad skater, but he never knows where to go on the ice to make use of his gifts."

Stuff like that. Go outside the 2nd round, and you start seeing one nice quality only - and that may just be size and not much else.

I think people have to think of it from a different viewpoint at times. Sure, Keller is dynamic and can score, but is he really going to help the Flames win - a team that doesn't seem to have an issue scoring goals? Will he make the Flames a more difficult team to play against? Also, how much will translate to the NHL?

If you take a guy with a slightly lower offensive ceiling, he still may be the better scorer in the NHL. His game might translate better. Or, it will provide the Flames with a different kind of threat that a coach can use. Say, another team is built like Calgary with smaller but very mobile and smart defencemen - you want to bang pucks in deep and get a cycle going. Playing off the rush is probably not going to be as effective against good puck-movers. Maybe the Flames really need a hard-nosed guy with hands to attack the net as they aren't getting as many 2nd and 3rd chances as other teams.

I think you have to balance a team. 12 Gaudreau forwards might sure be fun to watch, but not sure how that would translate.

With that being said, I do think the Flames can grab another sub 5'10" player as long as his skill is first class, but I don't imagine you can look to the 2nd round and think you can find enough talent in the big bodies to surround your smaller players in the top 6.

Keller's skill, I would argue, is more useful overall than Logan Brown's combo of size/skill. He's a potential PPG player at his peak. The team needs to get bigger and stronger, but not at the expense of high end talent like Clayton Keller.

If you have Monahan-Gaudreau and Bennett-Keller, you don't need to find their 3rd wheels at the top of the 1st round. You need a couple of Chris Kunitz types who can go to the net and keep up. That's what free agency and trades are for.

The players that really don't come available are players with elite game changing talent. Logan Brown may be a fine NHL player. But his ceiling's not Keller's.

[Rick M.]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Keller's skill, I would argue, is more useful overall than Logan Brown's combo of size/skill. He's a potential PPG player at his peak. The team needs to get bigger and stronger, but not at the expense of high end talent like Clayton Keller.

If you have Monahan-Gaudreau and Bennett-Keller, you don't need to find their 3rd wheels at the top of the 1st round. You need a couple of Chris Kunitz types who can go to the net and keep up. That's what free agency and trades are for.

The players that really don't come available are players with elite game changing talent. Logan Brown may be a fine NHL player. But his ceiling's not Keller's.

That's true. If you have a pair of Gaudreau-Monahan and another pair of Keller-Bennett you need to have someone to win board battles and dig the puck out of the corner for the skill guys. This is the role that Colin Patterson played for Gilmour-Mullen, for example.

[SHOGUN]

I'm not a fan of Brown. Yeah, he's big, but I don't he'll be able to adjust to the NHL speed.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by SHOGUN

I'm not a fan of Brown. Yeah, he's big, but I don't he'll be able to adjust to the NHL speed.

He's one of the best 6'6 skaters I think I've ever seen at his age. Skating is not going to hold him back IMO. I think it's fair to dislike him for other reasons but saying he won't be able to keep up? That's a stretch to me.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

The players that really don't come available are players with elite game changing talent. Logan Brown may be a fine NHL player. But his ceiling's not Keller's.

I think Brown's ceiling is as high or higher than Keller's personally. I'm not sold he's our pick at #6 but centres with his size, skill and skating are pretty rare. Brown has franchise centre potential if he hits his max upside. I'm far from convinced Keller does. I think at Keller's size his upside is as an elite 2nd line centre or a 1st line winger. I'm not totally convinced Brown is a great bet to hit his max upside but his max upside is incredible. He's a home run type pick.

The Keller highlight video was somewhat impressive but frankly I've been much more impressed with the Dubois video, the Brown video, Tkachuk highlights. There's probably 3 defensemen I'd take ahead of Keller as well. I don't think he's in consideration for our pick at #6 given who the Flames management group is. Keller is a great value pick in the teens. I think he'd be a reach at #6.

In the end this discussion comes down to philosophy. We can ask ourselves a few question to determine this. Besides goaltending (since we're obviously not taking a goaltender at #6 this year)
What is the biggest thing that separates the Flames from the contenders?
OR
What is the biggest thing that the Flames lack?

Some of you clearly believe it must be offensive skill as you are advocating taking the most purely skilled player available (a Keller or Nylander type). But is this really the case? The Flames had a terrible year and finished 11th in goal scoring. And they should reasonably expect a kid like Bennett to improve his offence over his career. Ferland may develop some offence. So is goal scoring really an issue? It doesn't seem like it is much of an issue at all. And Treliving may still be upgrading our forwards through draft/free agency.

We outscored STL, we outscored LA, we outscored TB. 2 of those teams are in the Conference finals. So how can we say that offensive skill or goalscoring is the flames biggest issue?

To me the biggest thing the Flames lack is clearly big, fast, skilled players. When we play the Ducks it literally looks like men (the Ducks) against boys (the Flames). Same thing when we play LA. We have problems retaining possession in the offensive zone because we can't win board battles. We have problems on the powerplay because only Colborne is providing a meaningful net front presence. We have problems on the road because teams can send their biggest, strongest shutdown players out against Gaudreau and we have no one with size, strength and skill to fight through that checking, draw defenders to him and make room for Gaudreau.

The second biggest issue to me after adding size/strength/skill up front is adding another big, strong, physical shutdown dman who can play top 4 minutes and help shut down the cycle of ANA, of LA, of STL. Those types of players are rare these days because to play top 4 you need a certain level of skating and puck moving ability. Maybe a kid like Chychrun could play that role for us while still being super mobile and having good puck moving ability. Maybe Sergachev could. Hard to say.

Basically for me it boils down to us needing more size and strength in key positions. We need more size and strength in our top 6 forwards but it can't come at the cost of skill or speed. We need more size and strength in the top 4 defense but it can't come at the cost of mobility or puck moving ability. Those types of players are hard to find. Everybody is looking for them.

This draft is a fantastic chance to add one of those rare players who has skill, skating, size, strength and character. Goalscoring is already a strength of the Flames. We don't need another skilled tiny forward, we have one of the best ones in the entire league. What need that which we lack, not that which we already have. We have zero top 6 power forwards at the moment. We have no elite shutdown d-man who can play at both ends of the ice. This draft can potentially address one of those needs.

Pure offensive skill just isn't a huge need of ours. We outscored two of the Conference finalists this regular season and we had a bad year. Some of our best prospects are offensive players (Jankowski, Shinkaruk). Our best players up front are all young offensive stars. What do we really lack? Those powerforwards that can win board battles, crash the net, drag defenders with them, screen the goalie and open up room for our budding young stars but still have enough skill to pass and score themselves. They are very hard to find in trade or UFA so maybe its a good year to draft one. Barring that I'd say another elite defenseman is still a better priority pick than grabbing an undersized offensive talent. NSH has shown that developing elite defensive talent make a solid backbone for your team and allows you trade excess defensive talent for whatever you need.

[Vulcan]

Here's an article and a list of players invited to the Scouting Combine May 30 to June 4.

http://flames.nhl.com/club/news.htm?...id=DL|CGY|home

[Erick Estrada]

Don't be fooled by the Flames being 11th overall in GF as a lot of those goals came from playing Hartley's high risk/reward system. Its very likely the Flames will play a more defensively responsible brand of hockey under the next coach and that the offense from the blue line will take a step back which will put more pressure on the forwards to generate offense. This team lacks skilled wingers more than anything outside a starting goaltender as Hudler's offense has yet to be replaced and they wont be a playoff contender with guys like Ferland playing a top 3/6 role.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Don't be fooled by the Flames being 11th overall in GF as a lot of those goals came from playing Hartley's high risk/reward system. Its very likely the Flames will play a more defensively responsible brand of hockey under the next coach and that the offense from the blue line will take a step back which will put more pressure on the forwards to generate offense. This team lacks skilled wingers more than anything outside a starting goaltender as Hudler's offense has yet to be replaced and they wont be a playoff contender with guys like Ferland playing a top 3/6 role.

Our results last year should have no impact on who we draft. They should impact who we trade for and sign in free agency.

Nobody outside the top 3 is NHL ready this year, according to Burke. Five years from now, I don't want to be lamenting passing on a Kane/Panarin style combo like Bennett-Keller so we could draft someone who was tall.

[dammage79]

If Alex Nylander is anything like Pavelski like Button (Is it Button?) compares him to, I want him on the Flames no matter what.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Nobody outside the top 3 is NHL ready this year, according to Burke. Five years from now, I don't want to be lamenting passing on a Kane/Panarin style combo like Bennett-Keller so we could draft someone who was tall.

Didn't Kane/Panarin just get bounced in the first round of the playoffs? We made it further last year than Chicago did this year. Shouldn't the Flames be aspiring to be something better than that? Maybe having elite small forwards doesn't necessarily make you a better contender in the playoffs?

Why did Chicago fail this year? Arguably it was lack of defensive depth. NSH, STL, SJ, these teams all have elite defense cores. Why did Dallas fail this year? Arguably defensive depth and goaltending. The two highest scoring teams in the league are out of the playoffs (DAL/WSH). WSH arguably lacks a true #1 dman. The strategy of outscoring everyone else in the playoffs seems to fail every year.

Anyways just some food for thought. Perhaps we're underrating the importance of defensemen and overrating the importance of wingers. Maybe the Flames should be looking to draft the top defenseman this year? I dunno.

[SHOGUN]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

He's one of the best 6'6 skaters I think I've ever seen at his age. Skating is not going to hold him back IMO. I think it's fair to dislike him for other reasons but saying he won't be able to keep up? That's a stretch to me.

I agree his skating is fine for his size, but what I mean by speed is the pace of the NHL game. I don't see him succeeding and playing a 200 ft game required as a centreman in the NHL... he fits more as a winger imo.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

. Five years from now, I don't want to be lamenting passing on a Kane/Panarin style combo like Bennett-Keller so we could draft someone who was tall.

Bennett-Keller has potential to be much more than Kane/Panarin.

Bennett and Keller are both natural two-way centers... they have the potential to be a better Bergeron-Marchand type shutdown line... except with more offensive skill

Then just throw a Hathaway type on the other wing to muck things up and tap in gimme goals.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Don't be fooled by the Flames being 11th overall in GF as a lot of those goals came from playing Hartley's high risk/reward system. Its very likely the Flames will play a more defensively responsible brand of hockey under the next coach and that the offense from the blue line will take a step back which will put more pressure on the forwards to generate offense. This team lacks skilled wingers more than anything outside a starting goaltender as Hudler's offense has yet to be replaced and they wont be a playoff contender with guys like Ferland playing a top 3/6 role.

Good post though you undersell Ferland. Ferland can be a 15-20 goal scorer and has every other tool to be a top 6 guy as a compliment. He looked fine on Johnny/Monny's wing even if he wasn't sniping top shelf.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Didn't Kane/Panarin just get bounced in the first round of the playoffs? We made it further last year than Chicago did this year. Shouldn't the Flames be aspiring to be something better than that? Maybe having elite small forwards doesn't necessarily make you a better contender in the playoffs?

Why did Chicago fail this year? Arguably it was lack of defensive depth. NSH, STL, SJ, these teams all have elite defense cores. Why did Dallas fail this year? Arguably defensive depth and goaltending. The two highest scoring teams in the league are out of the playoffs (DAL/WSH). WSH arguably lacks a true #1 dman. The strategy of outscoring everyone else in the playoffs seems to fail every year.

Anyways just some food for thought. Perhaps we're underrating the importance of defensemen and overrating the importance of wingers. Maybe the Flames should be looking to draft the top defenseman this year? I dunno.

I don't think anyone is underestimating the importance of dmen.

With the acquisition of Hamilton and drafting of Anderson and kylington last year, the flames basically used their top 5 picks on defense.

So, there isn't any high end forwards on the farm. Shinkaruk has potential...but Janko doesn't strike me as a top 6 offensive threat at this point in his development.

So, who's left? Johnny and Sean? Bennett is pencilled in as that, but we don't actually know... Are Colborne and Backlund expected to reproduce career highs? Do people think they have a chance of exceeding them?

Doesn't look like very much game breaking talent at all in that top group

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by dammage79

If Alex Nylander is anything like Pavelski like Button (Is it Button?) compares him to, I want him on the Flames no matter what.

Nylander is very much a sniper type player (accurate hard shot), which would be a good compliment to Gaudreau, although he does pass exceedingly well also. There is not a ton of difference in the skill level of the two Nylander brothers, which for how much we have heard about William from Big Tuna, getting someone directly comparable would not hurt at all.