Israel declares war on Hamas

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by blankall

Yes, I do think it's why. Many of you are straight up trolling Pointman for the purpose of eliciting a reaction. Pointman is a very recent survivor of a very traumatic situation. Even if you don't think that's the case, there's certainly an obnoxious, condescending, and flippant tone to many of the posts in here.

Many posters are clearly looking for their smoking gun, to counteract the fact they are not acknowledging events like a crowd of people spitting on the mutilated and recently raped corpse of a 20 year old woman.

Then posters attempting to hold out Pointman as a representative of all Israelis, despite the fact he's only been in the country for a few months.

No, not trolling, calling him out on some pretty outlandish takes, yes. I definitely empathize with Pointman's situation. However that does not absolve him from some pretty heinous takes. If we don't hold each other accountable that is a very slippery slope.

I don't see anyone who has not acknowledged October 7th, stop gaslighting. Isn't reading comprehension and logical reasoning one of the main testing pillars to get into law school? I even posted the below to Bagor:

Raping, parading naked women in the streets, killing families infront of one another. If you can’t differentiate between the two, I’m calling you a monster.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

Yes, and it seems as though talks broke down because it was just a few weeks before the Israeli election. It also seems as though Arafat ultimately accepted the terms of those talks, with the incoming Sharon administration canceling any agreements made.

Arafat said he would accept 18 months later. At that point there were no negotiations. So it's impossible to say he would have actually pulled the trigger.

I do agree that having Likud, who is the current Israeli government, in power is most certainly not conducive to a peace deal. In fact, they do many many things that actively make a peace deal impossible.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

There is a practical difference between the questionable breaking of international protocols for waging a war that kills civilians who no one cares about and almost every other country has done the same sort of thing somewhere themselves and the breaking of international protocols of going into a third country and killing people there when the third country is vitally important to the worlds energy supply and can increase the price of food the world over by shutting down the pumps, frankly if Hamas was hanging out in Ghana or Uganda Israel would be all over that but they arent, they live in a country the world needs so Israel cant target them there

Look at Mossad's wiki page, they have conducted clandestine missions in some important nations in the world including the UAE, UK, France, US, Germany, and Switzerland.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Leondros

No, not trolling, calling him out on some pretty outlandish takes, yes. I definitely empathize with Pointman's situation. However that does not absolve him from some pretty heinous takes. If we don't hold each other accountable that is a very slippery slope.

I don't see anyone who has not acknowledged October 7th, stop gaslighting. Isn't reading comprehension and logical reasoning one of the main testing pillars to get into law school? I even posted the below to Bagor:

I have no desire to engage with anyone in personal jabs.

I'm taking a break form this before it heats up, even further.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by blankall

I have no desire to engage with anyone in personal jabs.

I'm taking a break form this before it heats up, even further.

My apologies, I was going to edit it as I was re-reading it as it didn't read great. Sorry.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by blankall

Yes, I do think it's why. Many of you are straight up trolling Pointman for the purpose of eliciting a reaction. Pointman is a very recent survivor of a very traumatic situation. Even if you don't think that's the case, there's certainly an obnoxious, condescending, and flippant tone to many of the posts in here.

Many posters are clearly looking for their smoking gun, to counteract the fact they are not acknowledging events like a crowd of people spitting on the mutilated and recently raped corpse of a 20 year old woman.

Then posters attempting to hold out Pointman as a representative of all Israelis, despite the fact he's only been in the country for a few months.

The bolded is just wild projection, right? I can only assume it’s in response to feeling embarrassed that you got caught up reacting to a parody post (which is understandable), calling it “as bad as Pointman’s” while completely ignoring the post-in-earnest it was pulled from (which is… not great).

Like, to go from “no no guys, I criticized Pointman too!” to “actually everyone else who criticized him is the problem” is a bit of a joke.

The rest seems like a lot of hand-waiving to distract and avoid acknowledging the wild double-standard between what is acceptable when talking about Palestinian victims vs Israeli victims. You don’t react like this when posters like Azure call Palestinians “repulsive” for sharing similar sentiments that Pointman shared. You don’t but in and say “hey, they’ve just lived through a traumatic event, they deserve leeway,” do you? I might have missed it. Totally correct me if I’m off base here.

But whether you have or you haven’t, there really isn’t an excuse to deny that double-standard exists. Yours (whether intentional or not) and Zevo’s posts were obvious examples of it. You both literally reacted differently to the almost identical copy/pasted text (edited to be less inflammatory) based on the which innocent victims it was referring to. Hell, you reacted more strongly to the less inflammatory version!

That’s crazy, no? Can we at least stop pretending that it isn’t real?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Look at Mossad's wiki page, they have conducted clandestine missions in some important nations in the world including the UAE, UK, France, US, Germany, and Switzerland.

taking out 'Hamas' on Qatar means killing a shed load though and Qatar is way more important, it is actually important to Israel as well, it is one of the few Arab nations that has diplomatic ties to Israel, it hosts a major US airbase, Hamas is actually in Qatar because the US requested Qatar host them to enable some form of diplomacy

No Israel cant afford to piss off the US by playing in Qatar and on top of that what Israel needs to do is take out the 30 thousand or so low level Hamas in Gaza, Hamas in Qatar is annoying, Hamas in Gaza is dangerous

[Azure]

Hamas has built up major military infrastructure in Gaza. Israel has no choice but to invade if they want to get rid of Hamas.

I mean you can't have it both ways.

"Israel should hunt down every member of Hamas and kill them."

That also means getting rid of Hamas infrastructure and their means to launch attacks. You know, rockets and such.

To think otherwise is ignorance.

Now if you want to argue that Israel should not eradicate Hamas, then you can argue against troops on the ground in Gaza conducting operations.

But I'm seeing a whole lot of "Israel should eliminate Hamas", and then some serious gymnastics to try and explain how they should do that without actually going into Gaza.

But then again, mental gymnastics is the only way to justify such a ridiculous position.

"The US should eliminate ISIS."

"How?"

"By sending CIA operatives to kill every ISIS member."

"How many ISIS members are there?"

"10,000+"

Math must be hard.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Geraldsh

The entire area from Egypt to Lebanon needs to be turned to glass as a message to the rest of the world. Where is the great finger of God when you need it?

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

You're an idiot.

Wait a second. There may be some brilliance hidden in this suggestion? I know a couple posters like to go on about 3,000 years of history, so may we should go really old school and go way back to the "history book" and tear a page from the Judgement of King Solomon!

Nuke the whole area and then we'll find out who really wants the land. First to settle back in the nuclear wasteland wins! Okay, there will be 10,000 years of history before anyone with a brain will want to go back there, but we'll know soon enough who really wants the holy land.

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Those Israeli #######s are making other Jews (read: me and mine) look bad and stoking fires of antisemitism by being ruthless morons. I, personally, would like them to stop doing that so that I stop getting asked why they're so dumb and bad at running a government that feels like they're justified in murdering thousands of people.

Whoa, be careful making a suggestion that the actions of some Jews are making it easier for antisemitism to bubble to the surface and making the lives of other Jews harder. You might end up on a break.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

taking out 'Hamas' on Qatar means killing a shed load though and Qatar is way more important, it is actually important to Israel as well, it is one of the few Arab nations that has diplomatic ties to Israel, it hosts a major US airbase, Hamas is actually in Qatar because the US requested Qatar host them to enable some form of diplomacy

No Israel cant afford to piss off the US by playing in Qatar and on top of that what Israel needs to do is take out the 30 thousand or so low level Hamas in Gaza, Hamas in Qatar is annoying, Hamas in Gaza is dangerous

I think there were plenty of posts in here that claimed the Hamas leadership was the issue. Those most the 30,000 Hamas are just peons and without the leadership Hamas is nothing. I would tend to agree - the leadership is what needs to go, Hamas internationally is Hamas and the actual danger, Hamas in Gaza, is just a mob waiting to be controlled.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Azure

Hamas has built up major military infrastructure in Gaza. Israel has no choice but to invade if they want to get rid of Hamas.

I mean you can't have it both ways.

"Israel should hunt down every member of Hamas and kill them."

That also means getting rid of Hamas infrastructure and their means to launch attacks. You know, rockets and such.

To think otherwise is ignorance.

Now if you want to argue that Israel should not eradicate Hamas, then you can argue against troops on the ground in Gaza conducting operations.

But I'm seeing a whole lot of 'Israel should eliminate Hamas, and then some serious gymnastics to try and explain how they should do that without actually going into Gaza.

Hey, new rule: Can the guys who support Israel's military operations in Gaza quit making stuff up? For the people who just want fewer dead people and lives ruined, it's annoying having to reply to hogwash over and over. If you have good points, just articulate them honestly and if they're strong they'll stand on their own. You didn't need to lie, gaslight and pretend the counterpoints being made don't exist.

There's no gymnastics. We've said it needs to go guerilla and covert. Carpet bombing civilians - while a good idea in your mind for whatever reason - is a little distasteful to thoughtful people.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Azure

Hamas has built up major military infrastructure in Gaza. Israel has no choice but to invade if they want to get rid of Hamas.

I mean you can't have it both ways.

"Israel should hunt down every member of Hamas and kill them."

That also means getting rid of Hamas infrastructure and their means to launch attacks. You know, rockets and such.

To think otherwise is ignorance.

Now if you want to argue that Israel should not eradicate Hamas, then you can argue against troops on the ground in Gaza conducting operations.

But I'm seeing a whole lot of "Israel should eliminate Hamas", and then some serious gymnastics to try and explain how they should do that without actually going into Gaza.

But then again, mental gymnastics is the only way to justify such a ridiculous position.

"The US should eliminate ISIS."

"How?"

"By sending CIA operatives to kill every ISIS member."

"How many ISIS members are there?"

"10,000+"

Math must be hard.

I must not be the only person who believes the only way to defeat ISIS or Hamas or any other government funded on ideological violence is to eliminate the conditions which allow for them to grow and survive.

Widespread poverty, disenfranchisement based on severed ties to place, political subjugation, Traumatic experiences, loss of loved ones all give hateful violent people a foot hold in a society.

It would never happen, could never happen, but if Isreal dropped money and food and negotiated a solution that involved sharing prosperity and place instead of dropping 40 bombs an hour or whatever it is then Palestinians would march anyone involved in Hamas to be detained tried and jailed.

Instead, they have killed 10 thousand, and will kill as many more in a month and more still after that. Then once nothing is left but a pile of rubble, they will build mansions and gardens for new settlers and double down a police state on the remaining Palestinian population who will live with Widespread poverty, disenfranchisement based on severed ties to place, political subjugation, Traumatic experiences, and loss of loved ones.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I must not be the only person who believes the only way to defeat ISIS or Hamas or any other government funded on ideological violence is to eliminate the conditions which allow for them to grow and survive.

Widespread poverty, disenfranchisement based on severed ties to place, political subjugation, Traumatic experiences, loss of loved ones all give hateful violent people a foot hold in a society.

It would never happen, could never happen, but if Isreal dropped money and food and negotiated a solution that involved sharing prosperity and place instead of dropping 40 bombs an hour or whatever it is then Palestinians would march anyone involved in Hamas to be detained tried and jailed.

Instead, they have killed 10 thousand, and will kill as many more in a month and more still after that. Then once nothing is left but a pile of rubble, they will build mansions and gardens for new settlers and double down a police state on the remaining Palestinian population who will live with Widespread poverty, disenfranchisement based on severed ties to place, political subjugation, Traumatic experiences, and loss of loved ones.

Even if Israel did that it would not lead to peace. It certainly wouldn't lead to Palestinians rounding up Hamas. It would almost certainly lead to Hamas collecting the dropped money with little or none going to Palestinians and most or all going to Hamas leaders. Anyone that tried to stop them would likely be killed. The time of winning Hearts and Minds is unfortunately long gone (not that Israel ever really made a sustained effort). It is really sad but the reality is the only solution is a military one at this stage. Hopefully, Israel pulls back from the bombing and focusses on a precision attack. It will mean more Israeli casualties in the short-term but likely less in the long-term.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Even if Israel did that it would not lead to peace. It certainly wouldn't lead to Palestinians rounding up Hamas. It would almost certainly lead to Hamas collecting the dropped money with little or none going to Palestinians and most or all going to Hamas leaders. Anyone that tried to stop them would likely be killed. The time of winning Hearts and Minds is unfortunately long gone (not that Israel ever really made a sustained effort). It is really sad but the reality is the only solution is a military one at this stage. Hopefully, Israel pulls back from the bombing and focusses on a precision attack. It will mean more Israeli casualties in the short-term but likely less in the long-term.

It might not lead to peace, but it stands just about as good a chance of leading to peace as the current strategy does.

I think we just have to dispel these notions that there is “no choice” or that everything being done is the only thing that could be done. That we should be so sure different ideas, as idealistic or impossible as they might be (Iron said as much), wouldn’t have the desired result when it’s not like the current strategy or anything in recent history is achieving that result either.

Like, if this isn’t leading to peace, why do we care if the alternative doesn’t? If Israel has already funnelled money to Hamas through their current strategy, why is money ending up with Hamas a counterpoint to trying a different strategy?

Worst case scenario, nothing changes. Best case scenario, you make in-roads and change perceptions within the Palestinian population that heavily outnumbers the members of Hamas. You make their propaganda less believable, and people start to believe they need terror groups like Hamas to lift Israel’s heel off of them less.

What’s the best case scenario with the current strategy of collective punishment?

[TheIronMaiden]

If anything it would 100% change global perception of the events.
People are not going to be more sympathetic when the death count is 30,000 or three months down the road 40,000

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I must not be the only person who believes the only way to defeat ISIS or Hamas or any other government funded on ideological violence is to eliminate the conditions which allow for them to grow and survive.

Widespread poverty, disenfranchisement based on severed ties to place, political subjugation, Traumatic experiences, loss of loved ones all give hateful violent people a foot hold in a society.

It would never happen, could never happen, but if Isreal dropped money and food and negotiated a solution that involved sharing prosperity and place instead of dropping 40 bombs an hour or whatever it is then Palestinians would march anyone involved in Hamas to be detained tried and jailed.

Instead, they have killed 10 thousand, and will kill as many more in a month and more still after that. Then once nothing is left but a pile of rubble, they will build mansions and gardens for new settlers and double down a police state on the remaining Palestinian population who will live with Widespread poverty, disenfranchisement based on severed ties to place, political subjugation, Traumatic experiences, and loss of loved ones.

Sadly Islamic countries are all, unless they sit on a shed load of oil, poor, essentially Islamic law didn't allow for modern banking to develop (they still struggle to deal with the 'sin' of usury) Islamic countries have grimly bad civil legal systems, particularly through inheritance law that actively discourage economic growth and that's before you factor in the general lack of democracy in most and raised levels of corruption, the only way to eliminate the conditions of poverty is to pretty much stop Palestine being an Islamic country, Arabs in Israel, even with the racism and state limitations they face, are still the richest most economically stable Arabic population in the region

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Sliver

There's no gymnastics. We've said it needs to go guerilla and covert. Carpet bombing civilians - while a good idea in your mind for whatever reason - is a little distasteful to thoughtful people.

I'm pretty sure I said this over a month ago in fact.

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Then they should take it to the ground to reduce civilian casualties, or just glass it.

Seems like indiscriminately bombing stuff is a half-measure

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Leondros

Look at Mossad's wiki page, they have conducted clandestine missions in some important nations in the world including the UAE, UK, France, US, Germany, and Switzerland.

To kill one or two people. Hamas aren’t going to fold up shop if a few of their top leaders are killed. These guys aren’t run-of-the-mill political militia who can be persuaded to lay down arms and take up day jobs - they’re fanatical zealots in the vein of ISIS. Israel needs to take out thousands of fighters and their armaments - most of them in Gaza - to remove the threat from Hamas.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Widespread poverty, disenfranchisement based on severed ties to place, political subjugation, Traumatic experiences, loss of loved ones all give hateful violent people a foot hold in a society.

Those conditions are widespread across the developing world. If poverty and oppression were all it took to breed murderous radicalism, we’d see groups like Hamas springing up in Honduras, Burundi, and Cambodia, and slaughters like Oct 7 would be routine.

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

To kill one or two people. Hamas aren’t going to fold up shop if a few of their top leaders are killed. These guys aren’t run-of-the-mill political militia who can be persuaded to lay down arms and take up day jobs - they’re fanatical zealots in the vein of ISIS. Israel needs to take out thousands of fighters and their armaments - most of them in Gaza - to remove the threat from Hamas.

If that is the case, I believe the US will pull the plug on that before the threat of Hamas can be completely removed.