Brad Treliving needs to go

[Jimdon]

Nordstrom from what I've understood was the least effective offensive player in the entire league this year. 2.2% shooting percentage. You shouldn't be allowed to put on skates in this league with the numbers he had this year. He was on a defacto second line after Monahan got shut down. We played the worst offensive player in the entire league on a line with Backlund who is also one of the least efficient offensive players in the league. They have decent corsi numbers tho. Super.

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by Jimdon

Nordstrom from what I've understood was the least effective offensive player in the entire league this year. 2.2% shooting percentage. You shouldn't be allowed to put on skates in this league with the numbers he had this year. He was on a defacto second line after Monahan got shut down. We played the worst offensive player in the entire league on a line with Backlund who is also one of the least efficient offensive players in the league. They have decent corsi numbers tho. Super.

But also... maybe we all need to chill and recognize that the flames are one of the worst franchises in sports... like lions or Vikings bad. And therefore nothing should be a shock

[Jimdon]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I am all for letting Treliving go, but Hathaway is not a good example here.


Flames signed Hathaway as a free agent following his college career, and played less than 10 games to finish off the season. He then spent 4 years looking like an NHL'er, and the fading. He usually didn't even look good in training camp/preseason. He would earn a call-up, and look good for a game or two, and then disappear for 3 or 4. He did this for 4 years.

Hathaway isn't a good example then I guess Byron isn't a good example, Kulak isn't a good example either. Let's not mention Bennett because that gets ugly.

Too bad we.dont have any good examples.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Perhaps it's inept management by BUF (and BOS), but going into the season BUF's middle 6 was pretty wide open. Yet Rieder couldn't earn more time than Sheahan, Lazar, Thompson, or Okposo.



Spezza is a massive outlier. He's 27th in the league in pts/60 (11:01 per night).

To find the next guy under 13 mins (and at least half the season):
91. Sprong (11:40) WAS
110. Wahlstrom (12:23) NYI

So it's pretty clear Spezza would be playing more and earning more on any other team.


Who deviated more from their typical production levels? Top 6 or bottom 6?

JG/Lindholm were close to par
Backs/Monahan/Tkachuk down
Mangi Up

Lucic/Dubé up
Bennett up YOY (but still low)
Ritchie/Nordstrom/Leivo close to par (Leivo only down in assists)
Ryan way down


4/6 of the top guys were well down for most of the year. Johnny's late run got him back to normal(ish), and Mangiapane progressed.

Ryan's role was reduced and his production even more so. Otherwise everyone was as you would expect. Neither Dubé nor anyone else popped as we might have hoped. C'est la vie.


Looking back to our playoff failures, depth scoring hasn't been the thing holding us back, and it wasn't what held us back this season.

It’s probably not fair to even look into the Sabres stats this season with Covid ravaging the team. Rieder caught Covid himself so who knows how that affected him physically. Hall, Eichel and Staal only had 2, 2 and 3 goals themselves respectively. It was just a miserable season for virtually everybody in that organization.

As for the Flames, some guys were up, some guys were down, others were the same as last year. But isn’t that the problem in the end? Management expected the team to improve, but the moves didn’t pan out, holes weren’t filled, everything was sort of a wash and the Flames ended up again, as a middling bubble playoff team as usual.

This team has always needed major upgrades, but management didn’t see that. They added periphery pieces to an already weak core and surrounded it with below average depth everywhere else. That’s why the Flames have failed. They’re ultimately a one a line team. Even in years past, when the core met expectations, this team still failed to reach the next level. Until the Flames gain meaningful ground in all areas of their line up, this team will struggle to match up with the best teams.

I give Treliving credit in recognizing that you can’t just rely on a few guys. He mentioned that in the presser that depth is very important and I agree with him 100%. The Flames don’t have a plethora of elite superstars, so it has to be done more-so by committee. But the problem is their player/talent evaluation. It’s like they’ve realized that there’s an issue, but they can’t seem to find a solution and the clock isn’t on their side.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

It’s probably not fair to even look into the Sabres stats this season with Covid ravaging the team. Rieder caught Covid himself so who knows how that affected him physically. Hall, Eichel and Staal only had 2, 2 and 3 goals themselves respectively. It was just a miserable season for virtually everybody in that organization.

As for the Flames, some guys were up, some guys were down, others were the same as last year. But isn’t that the problem in the end? Management expected the team to improve, but the moves didn’t pan out, holes weren’t filled, everything was sort of a wash and the Flames ended up again, as a middling bubble playoff team as usual.

This team has always needed major upgrades, but management didn’t see that. They added periphery pieces to an already weak core and surrounded it with below average depth everywhere else. That’s why the Flames have failed. They’re ultimately a one a line team. Even in years past, when the core met expectations, this team still failed to reach the next level. Until the Flames gain meaningful ground in all areas of their line up, this team will struggle to match up with the best teams.

I give Treliving credit in recognizing that you can’t just rely on a few guys. He mentioned that in the presser that depth is very important and I agree with him 100%. The Flames don’t have a plethora of elite superstars, so it has to be done more-so by committee. But the problem is their player/talent evaluation. It’s like they’ve realized that there’s an issue, but they can’t seem to find a solution and the clock isn’t on their side.

Highly suspect.

I’ll argue that Markstrom and Tanev are not peripheral parts, far from it. Moving forward, the acquisition of those two players could prove to be very good moves, I believe there’s very good reason to believe that will be the case.

Overall, was last offseason a failed strategy? Hard to argue it wasn’t based on this past season. I’m reasonably sure signing Lievo, Nordstrom,Simon, Ritchie wasn’t Treliving’s first choice, but not everything is going to fall into place exactly how one might want it to. We can only speculate, but what would a Gaudreau-Monahan-Andersson line looked like? Better that Gaudreau-Monahan-Ritchie/Simon/Lievo, I bet.

Problem is, a GM might have a plan, but so do 30 other GM’s. you have to find a match. there are negotiations on top of negotiations, throughout the league. I really think people underestimate how challenging it must be to make these types of player acquisitions.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Highly suspect.

I’ll argue that Markstrom and Tanev are not peripheral parts, far from it. Moving forward, the acquisition of those two players could prove to be very good moves, I believe there’s very good reason to believe that will be the case.

Overall, was last offseason a failed strategy? Hard to argue it wasn’t based on this past season. I’m reasonably sure signing Lievo, Nordstrom,Simon, Ritchie wasn’t Treliving’s first choice, but not everything is going to fall into place exactly how one might want it to. We can only speculate, but what would a Gaudreau-Monahan-Andersson line looked like? Better that Gaudreau-Monahan-Ritchie/Simon/Lievo, I bet.

Problem is, a GM might have a plan, but so do 30 other GM’s. you have to find a match. there are negotiations on top of negotiations, throughout the league. I really think people underestimate how challenging it must be to make these types of player acquisitions.

Other teams could say the same thing but many of them are making it work. We had a player in Sam Bennett but the organization lacked the ability to take advantage of this asset. He is now getting opportunities elsewhere. Your suggesting we are lacking because we are competing against 30 other GM's. I would counter the Flames need to step up their game and start a better job instead of making excuses.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Other teams could say the same thing but many of them are making it work. We had a player in Sam Bennett but the organization lacked the ability to take advantage of this asset. He is now getting opportunities elsewhere. Your suggesting we are lacking because we are competing against 30 other GM's. I would counter the Flames need to step up their game and start a better job instead of making excuses.

Well, I’m not sure how we measure ‘making it work’ but I would bet most fan bases, aside from maybe 4-5, would say the same thing you are. Is Fletcher making it work? Kelalinen? Bergevin? Benning? Wilson? Poile? McLennan? Murray? What’s the fan response if the Oilers get bounced? Leafs?

Regardless, I would imagine that patience has ran its course with Treliving and we will see significant change this offseason.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

It’s probably not fair to even look into the Sabres stats this season with Covid ravaging the team. Rieder caught Covid himself so who knows how that affected him physically. Hall, Eichel and Staal only had 2, 2 and 3 goals themselves respectively. It was just a miserable season for virtually everybody in that organization.

As for the Flames, some guys were up, some guys were down, others were the same as last year. But isn’t that the problem in the end? Management expected the team to improve, but the moves didn’t pan out, holes weren’t filled, everything was sort of a wash and the Flames ended up again, as a middling bubble playoff team as usual.

This team has always needed major upgrades, but management didn’t see that. They added periphery pieces to an already weak core and surrounded it with below average depth everywhere else. That’s why the Flames have failed. They’re ultimately a one a line team. Even in years past, when the core met expectations, this team still failed to reach the next level. Until the Flames gain meaningful ground in all areas of their line up, this team will struggle to match up with the best teams.

I give Treliving credit in recognizing that you can’t just rely on a few guys. He mentioned that in the presser that depth is very important and I agree with him 100%. The Flames don’t have a plethora of elite superstars, so it has to be done more-so by committee. But the problem is their player/talent evaluation. It’s like they’ve realized that there’s an issue, but they can’t seem to find a solution and the clock isn’t on their side.

I like Rieder and wish we could have kept him. He was good for 12-16 goals when he played 14-17 mins a night in ARI.

4 teams and at least 7 coaches since then have had him under 13 mins, and his production has followed. (Actually in McLellan's 20 games with EDM that year he had him playing 13:28 and he put up 7 assists...then 4 assists in the remaining 47 games under Hitch at 12:18).

I'm not a big defer to coaching authority guy, but they have more information than us and want to win.

COVID is a reasonable thing to consider, but he was no different than his previous 2 years. He had a few flashes of more playing time early this year and then mid-March to early April. But the last 12 games he averaged 10:25 (Eichel, Staal, Hall, Lazar out; Bjork in)

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Well, I’m not sure how we measure ‘making it work’ but I would bet most fan bases, aside from maybe 4-5, would say the same thing you are. Is Fletcher making it work? Kelalinen? Bergevin? Benning? Wilson? Poile? McLennan? Murray? What’s the fan response if the Oilers get bounced? Leafs?

Regardless, I would imagine that patience has ran its course with Treliving and we will see significant change this offseason.

Am I wrong? Flames need to do a better job, doesn't matter what other fans say. Agreed, several teams are in the same boat! Those are just more excuses, but I do believe it can be done, pretty sure you do too!? Flames just have to bear down and get it right. Treliving himself admits he has not gotten the job done. Sometimes hitting rock bottom is where growth starts and can be a wake up call to do things a little differently. As for Treliving he is a smart man, works hard has done a lot of good things.

As a fan, we can be outspoken but we are Flames fans, we want our team to win!

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Am I wrong? Flames need to do a better job, doesn't matter what other fans say. Agreed, several teams are in the same boat! Those are just more excuses, but I do believe it can be done, pretty sure you do too!? Flames just have to bear down and get it right. Treliving himself admits he has not gotten the job done. Sometimes hitting rock bottom is where growth starts and can be a wake up call to do things a little differently. As for Treliving he is a smart man, works hard has done a lot of good things.

As a fan, we can be outspoken but we are Flames fans, we want our team to win!

when you say ‘ the Flames need to step up and start doing a better job instead of making excuses’. Well, yeah. Treliving himself has said as much and I don’t think he has made any excuses. these sorts of criticisms that are frequently being brought up are made in a vacuum of evidence or context.

Of course, we all want the Flames to win or at least give us something to be excited about. This past season didn’t give us either. I’m more interested as to why as opposed to laying blame.

[edn88]

I want Tre back, unless there is a bonafide rockstar GM waiting. I like the thinks he has done with what he has been given.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by edn88

I want Tre back, unless there is a bonafide rockstar GM waiting. I like the thinks he has done with what he has been given.

I am on my last straw with him but wouldn’t be pissed if they brought him back. His next moves have to be strong and the team needs to be back in the playoffs and winning a round. I think Treliving staying has a higher chance of big player movement this offseason rather than another GM coming in

[1qqaaz]

There's a chance that some of the GMs of current playoff teams are not in the clear.

I don't think David Poile is safe. Perhaps Marc Bergevin as well.

It might make sense to wait a while to see what happens.
Personally, I would go for Poile, but not Bergevin. Poile has a very long track record. Ownership would basically be forced to defer to his expertise. This would be nice.
Poile is the best GM in the league when it comes to giving RFAs long extensions. Josi's previous contract was one of the best in NHL history. Jarnkrok's, Arvidsson's, Ekholm's and even Ellis's contracts are similar.

Even though I think Treliving should be fired, I don't think it would be that bad if they kept him.
I think Treliving can generally execute. He just needs the right kind of general direction from ownership. The question isn't really whether Treliving can make good trades (he's usually fine at this). Rather, the question is whether ownership would let him trade the pieces in the first place.
For an example, I think if Treliving were to trade Monahan for picks, he would be able to maximize the value. However, I don't think ownership would let Treliving trade Monahan for picks in the first place. They want to compete now and always, regardless of the mediocrity.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Jimdon

Hathaway isn't a good example then I guess Byron isn't a good example, Kulak isn't a good example either. Let's not mention Bennett because that gets ugly.

Too bad we.dont have any good examples.

Sure, because that's exactly what I said. You just do you.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I am on my last straw with him but wouldn’t be pissed if they brought him back. His next moves have to be strong and the team needs to be back in the playoffs and winning a round. I think Treliving staying has a higher chance of big player movement this offseason rather than another GM coming in

Yep.

All signs point to him getting this offseason and next year. I don’t think Treliving will have any other choice other than to be bold this offseason. As I said earlier, patience has run its course with this core. Surgery is now required.

Even from a business standpoint, I don’t see how the Flames would fire their GM, and maybe more, pay out the remainder of their contracts and hire a new management team while they just went through a season of, presumably, massive losses. Top it off with an arena that is being 50% funded by the public, I would be shocked to see a change in management. And every passing day, a change becomes less likely in my view.

[Calgary4LIfe]

It wouldn't surprise me if Treliving isn't fired - but even if it is going to happen, it probably wouldn't happen for a few weeks. The organization will first do some kind of internal analysis. I prefer that they do this anyway - no knee-jerk reactions. If they feel that Treliving is the wrong candidate, they will fire him, and if they come together and think that these underwhelming seasons happened in spite of Treliving, then he will be retained. I would prefer they do it this way all the time, so this organization doesn't become a revolving door of laughter like some others. I wouldn't expect to see him gone for at least a few weeks, maybe a month. Once the playoffs end and Treliving is still around, that's the signal to me that he isn't going to be let-go.


I do agree, however, that if Treliving is retained, he has no other option than to make a bigger change. I think he pretty much has to given the contract situations anyway, but I do think that at least one core member will be traded - so one out of Monahan, Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Lindholm (probably the only 'safe' one given performance and contract status), Backlund and Giordano.



I do think there will be overhaul on the bottom 6 as well - I think he stated that the 'new additions didn't work out', so I can't imagine that any of them will be returning (maybe Leivo - he did pick up on scoring). I would imagine Nordstrom, Ritchie (though both Sutter favourites), Simon, maybe Leivo will be gone, and I think Ryan is gone too.


I think there will be a lot of turnover this season - more than usual. Usually there is 3-5 players more or less. I think we see maybe 7 or 8 new faces before the season starts up again.

[oldschoolcalgary]

to me, bringing Treliving back next season feels like the decision to bring Ward back...Doomed from the start

His biggest failure has been identifying a head coach...can't cycle through coaches like the Flames have without stunting the team.

Feels like that scene in A Perfect Storm - Calgary bobbing up and down in 8th place, hoping for some miraculous "anything can happen" playoff moment... There was a glimmer of hope, seeing the sun for an minute - in the Flames case, that was the season under Peters - only to be dragged back down into the maelstrom.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Highly suspect.

I’ll argue that Markstrom and Tanev are not peripheral parts, far from it. Moving forward, the acquisition of those two players could prove to be very good moves, I believe there’s very good reason to believe that will be the case.

Overall, was last offseason a failed strategy? Hard to argue it wasn’t based on this past season. I’m reasonably sure signing Lievo, Nordstrom,Simon, Ritchie wasn’t Treliving’s first choice, but not everything is going to fall into place exactly how one might want it to. We can only speculate, but what would a Gaudreau-Monahan-Andersson line looked like? Better that Gaudreau-Monahan-Ritchie/Simon/Lievo, I bet.

Problem is, a GM might have a plan, but so do 30 other GM’s. you have to find a match. there are negotiations on top of negotiations, throughout the league. I really think people underestimate how challenging it must be to make these types of player acquisitions.

Maybe I should’ve prefaced my point by saying that I was talking about forwards. The entire conversation leading up to my point was all about the Flames’ 4 lines, so when I say periphery pieces, I’m strictly talking about the 4 UFA forwards that were selected.

Trust me, I wouldn’t call one of the season’s MVPs in Chris Tanev a periphery piece. I was one of the few people who really liked the signing and maybe the only one who said the Flames would be protecting him in the expansion draft. I’m a big fan of Chris Tanev and without a doubt, this is probably Treliving’s greatest UFA pick up.

With all that said though, defense wasn’t the main issue this season, it was goal scoring. The coach and management have all singled that out as the biggest problem and I agree. In fact, I hated their line combos from day 1. Darryl used the word “entitlement” when talking about the young players this season and he’s 100% right IMO. Management thought Dillon Dube was ready for 1st line duty this season, that was a failure of a decision right from the get go as that line struggled and so too did the other lines as none of the forwards could gain any traction all season long.

That is 100% on management for experimenting with 4 brand new lines. They didn’t know their team well enough to put together 4 cohesive lines. You say that Leivo, Ritchie, Simon and Nordstrom wasn’t Treliving’s first choice and I agree. But years of poor player acquisitions and buyouts will do that to you. Had it not been for the Neal and Brouwer singings, this team would’ve had the cap space to find proper depth on the right wing. This is unequivocally, management’s fault. They dug themselves into a tremendous hole and now they’re finding out just how hard it is to dig themselves out.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Maybe I should’ve prefaced my point by saying that I was talking about forwards. The entire conversation leading up to my point was all about the Flames’ 4 lines, so when I say periphery pieces, I’m strictly talking about the 4 UFA forwards that were selected.

Trust me, I wouldn’t call one of the season’s MVPs in Chris Tanev a periphery piece. I was one of the few people who really liked the signing and maybe the only one who said the Flames would be protecting him in the expansion draft. I’m a big fan of Chris Tanev and without a doubt, this is probably Treliving’s greatest UFA pick up.

With all that said though, defense wasn’t the main issue this season, it was goal scoring. The coach and management have all singled that out as the biggest problem and I agree. In fact, I hated their line combos from day 1. Darryl used the word “entitlement” when talking about the young players this season and he’s 100% right IMO. Management thought Dillon Dube was ready for 1st line duty this season, that was a failure of a decision right from the get go as that line struggled and so too did the other lines as none of the forwards could gain any traction all season long.

That is 100% on management for experimenting with 4 brand new lines. They didn’t know their team well enough to put together 4 cohesive lines. You say that Leivo, Ritchie, Simon and Nordstrom wasn’t Treliving’s first choice and I agree. But years of poor player acquisitions and buyouts will do that to you. Had it not been for the Neal and Brouwer singings, this team would’ve had the cap space to find proper depth on the right wing. This is unequivocally, management’s fault. They dug themselves into a tremendous hole and now they’re finding out just how hard it is to dig themselves out.

Admittedly I didn’t read the lead up to your post. I just saw some points raised I wanted to respond to.

Fair points you raise here. The Flames do have their work cut out for themselves. I do believe, and agree with Treliving’s assessment, that this team underperformed. I can see a return to the playoffs with a normal season and division alignment next year. He could be criticized for not acting sooner, but I don’t think that will be the case this offseason. I could see a scenario where he make a change to the core that most of us see coming (Gaudreau or Monahan) and maybe another that people don’t see coming, or at least not being discussed as often (Hanifin, Backlund). Just a guess on my part though.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

It wouldn't surprise me if Treliving isn't fired - but even if it is going to happen, it probably wouldn't happen for a few weeks. The organization will first do some kind of internal analysis. I prefer that they do this anyway - no knee-jerk reactions. If they feel that Treliving is the wrong candidate, they will fire him, and if they come together and think that these underwhelming seasons happened in spite of Treliving, then he will be retained. I would prefer they do it this way all the time, so this organization doesn't become a revolving door of laughter like some others. I wouldn't expect to see him gone for at least a few weeks, maybe a month. Once the playoffs end and Treliving is still around, that's the signal to me that he isn't going to be let-go.


I do agree, however, that if Treliving is retained, he has no other option than to make a bigger change. I think he pretty much has to given the contract situations anyway, but I do think that at least one core member will be traded - so one out of Monahan, Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Lindholm (probably the only 'safe' one given performance and contract status), Backlund and Giordano.



I do think there will be overhaul on the bottom 6 as well - I think he stated that the 'new additions didn't work out', so I can't imagine that any of them will be returning (maybe Leivo - he did pick up on scoring). I would imagine Nordstrom, Ritchie (though both Sutter favourites), Simon, maybe Leivo will be gone, and I think Ryan is gone too.


I think there will be a lot of turnover this season - more than usual. Usually there is 3-5 players more or less. I think we see maybe 7 or 8 new faces before the season starts up again.

I don’t see it the same way. Dismissing him wouldn’t be knee jerk. The body of work and evidence are all there.

If the team hasn’t done the analysis, that’s where they are the joke

Treliving can justify everything he has done, can speak about all of the analysis that went in to each of his moves. I listed in another post about 10-15 of his moves that have not worked out for the better. He is getting a pretty long rap sheet now, both in terms of moves that didn’t work out, and seasons that didn’t work out

He seems to be able to say it all starts with him, and at some point the owners should listen to that part of the story

The team IMO should not waste another second on this guy. I still think they keep him but absolutely should not