Ban organized religion, says Elton John

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Yes well how hard could that be? It wasn't until the 20th century that we find States which embraced atheism. So if you choose you could attribute everything bad that has happened in this world to religion. O except for communism which is because of a bad ideology; Right? Such hypocrisy!

Huh? Being hypocritical would have been to point out only the bad things that "your side" has done and ignoring all the bad things "my side"(that I'm not even on) has done. I didn't do that. You did.

The ironic thing about this whole discussion is that it's people like you who are supposed to be "spreading the message" but you come across as so arrogant, condescending and aggressive that you are probably doing the exact opposite of "spreading the message". You might want to change tack a little bit if you really do want to bring other people onside instead of just feeling superior to those that haven't picked up on your particular brand of salvation.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

My argument wasn't that Atheism leads to mass murder. I was arguing that the only examples of atheistic governments are examples of horribly bad governments. It's easy to say that religion is responsible for every bad thing that has happen to man. The fact is that Atheism is a faith system and has a poorer track record than any other religion. We have never had a bloodier century than the 20th century and most of the blood shed was done by Atheists. Perhaps if an atheistic government ever comes to power without bloodshed and produces an Utopian society than Cheese will have an argument.

Except there's one problem with this.. They aren't horribly bad governments because they abolish religion. They are horribly bad because of the people that are controlling them, the power that they crave and the means by which they will accomplish their goals to achieve power.

Denouncing atheism on the basis of the actions of communism is silly. It has nothing to do with faith (or lack there of) but power.

Utopia's are impossible by definition of nature. Nature is chaos, and always will be. War, wanton destruction, and world suffering will always be a part of the world because it's part of nature.

Show me a Christian government that is a utopia full of peace and bliss.

[Red Mile Style]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Come on now. You are quoting the bible and at the same time accusing someone else of using propaganda?

If I were you I'd stay away from the whole "look at the bad things secular governments did" argument. Your grasp of history isn't sufficient to back it up and we don't have the rest of our lives to outline all the nasty things done in the name of this god or that god or these gods.

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Is this a joke?

"You are crazy, people are bad, religion is good, I am religious, I don't like homosexuals".

Come on dude, just because you don't agree with what the man has to say, doesn't mean you have to take it to a personal level. I mean, you should be happy to have someone that offers different views rather than just your own.

Okay, historically speaking, religion has caused an exuberant amount of conflict. But, I have to point out that since the establishment of a secular state, it's not like war has just disappeared like you are suggesting. People are now "worshipping" their political leaders etc. and I would even go as far as to say that blind patriotism is way more dangerous than any kind of religious worship in this day and age. So, instead of occupying a state in the name of God, states are now occupying a state for money, oil, power etc... potato potato (meh, that only works if you're saying it).

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

At least you know where my quote came from. Cheese quoted some supposed Christian source and pertends that they represent what Christians think. He either doesn't have the will or the ability to even put a name by the quote or explain how this person represents most Christian's world view.

I in fact showed from history that the first place where their was true freedom of religion was the baptist colony of Rhode Island. The freedom of conscience would have allowed for the free expression of atheism as well. Since not believing there is a God is a religious belief.



Yes well how hard could that be? It wasn't until the 20th century that we find States which embraced atheism. So if you choose you could attribute everything bad that has happened in this world to religion. O except for communism which is because of a bad ideology; Right? Such hypocrisy!

ROFLMAO....well geez I forget one link and CBA gets all excited! LOL.
At the VERY least I have links to something...anything...besides whatever version of the Bible you are using.
You seriously need to get educated regarding Communism...do anything you can to help yourself.

here Ill help you again...
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQ...nat_killed.htm
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...e_atheism.html

In their attempt to demonize atheism, many church leaders to this day insist on equating atheism with communism. This tactic, which originated during Sen. Joseph McCarthys anti-communist hysteria, is as nonfactual today as it was then. Just because one is an atheist, it does not follow that they are communists. Mark Twain, Thomas Edison, Luther Burbank, Katherine Hepburn and countless others are known to be atheists, yet no one would call them communists. In fact, there have been many communist countries in Europe and elsewhere that were Christian, including Roman Catholic Italy, Hungary, and Poland, and Lutheran Germany.
The smear campaign against atheists is an attempt to link them with the crimes of the various communist dictatorships. Few would deny that Joseph Stalins Soviet Union was a totalitarian dictatorship, or that he focused much of his enmity on the church. However, we must consider two important factors: 1) Did he commit his crimes in the name of atheism, and 2) What were his motivations.


http://www.atheistsunited.org/wordso...communism.html


http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist.htm


Atheism is NOT historically linked to Communism, or any other particular system of social organization. Atheists represent many shades on the political spectrum, and often disagree amongst themselves about political issues. While Communism and its leading theoreticians happened to be Atheists, social activists of other persuasions have been Atheists as well. Many of us link our Atheism -- which is, after all, based on Reason -- to socially progressive ideas including civil liberties and social equality. We "agree to disagree," hopefully in a friendly and respectful manner though, about a wide range of current issues. We work together where possible, especially on the important issue of separation of State and Church.

http://www.atheists.org/faqs/atheism.html#not.communism

There are multiple answers, but the question itself rests on a misunderstanding of Atheism. Atheism is not an ideology or belief system; in fact, Atheism is simply an absence of belief in a God or gods. Atheism does not lead to Communism anymore than disbelieving in Santa Claus leads anybody to steal toys from kids. Atheism isn't about believing something: it's about doubting something.

And Ive told you this before...but you continue to ignore it...

It is true that the Bolsheviks discouraged religious worship, closed some churches and stole church property and wealth. One might wonder why the churches were so wealthy and the people so poor but, again, a complete story would show that the Russian Orthodox Church was the confidante of and collaborator with a corrupt and repressive Russian monarchy.

http://www.ronaldbrucemeyer.com/rants/1116almanac.htm

People could practice religion if they liked. There were Churches built in the Soviet era by the Soviet government. The difference is that Church and the state was separated.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml8313.htm

The philanthropy of atheism is therefore at first only philosophical, abstract philanthropy, and that of communism is at once real and directly bent on action.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx...ripts/comm.htm

Enough?

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by kermitology

Except there's one problem with this.. They aren't horribly bad governments because they abolish religion. They are horribly bad because of the people that are controlling them, the power that they crave and the means by which they will accomplish their goals to achieve power.

Denouncing atheism on the basis of the actions of communism is silly. It has nothing to do with faith (or lack there of) but power.

But the same can be said for much of the bloodshed done in the name of religion. Was the cause the religion or was it power hungery men who used religion as a vehicle much the same way Communism used atheism as an excuse to kill opposition and take their stuff.

Utopia's are impossible by definition of nature. Nature is chaos, and always will be. War, wanton destruction, and world suffering will always be a part of the world because it's part of nature.

Show me a Christian government that is a utopia full of peace and bliss.

I can't. As a Christian I don't believe man is inherantly good. That includes Christian men. We all sin(miss the mark). That doesn't mean we are excused from our actions or that we can't make the world a better place by applying christian principles to our lives. The book of James says:

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

[Crazy Flamer]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

But the same can be said for much of the bloodshed done in the name of religion. Was the cause the religion or was it power hungery men who used religion as a vehicle much the same way Communism used atheism as an excuse to kill opposition and take their stuff.



I can't. As a Christian I don't believe man is inherantly good. That includes Christian men. We all sin(miss the mark). That doesn't mean we are excused from our actions or that we can't make the world a better place by applying christian principles to our lives. The book of James says:

You know I really feel sorry for you. What a sad way to live. So you think in order for man to be good, he has to have a belief in some sort of higher being, that man can not bring out his good nature on his own? Wow...

And man was supposedly created in God's image...What does that say about you God?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

Come on dude, just because you don't agree with what the man has to say, doesn't mean you have to take it to a personal level. I mean, you should be happy to have someone that offers different views rather than just your own.

Okay, historically speaking, religion has caused an exuberant amount of conflict. But, I have to point out that since the establishment of a secular state, it's not like war has just disappeared like you are suggesting. People are now "worshipping" their political leaders etc. and I would even go as far as to say that blind patriotism is way more dangerous than any kind of religious worship in this day and age. So, instead of occupying a state in the name of God, states are now occupying a state for money, oil, power etc... potato potato (meh, that only works if you're saying it).

The world is hardly a secular state.....simply look south of the border for the first example. Check the middle east for other examples.
Where Secularism is "somewhat set" I do see positive things happening...Canada, Sweden, Denmark are but a few of the countries that have strong secularist leanings...although it also depends on what part of the country you are in...<eg Alberta vs Ontario>.
You said it yourself..."historically speaking, religion has caused an exuberant amount of conflict". Look at the serious conflicts of today...are they secularist in nature? I doubt it.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

But the same can be said for much of the bloodshed done in the name of religion. Was the cause the religion or was it power hungery men who used religion as a vehicle much the same way Communism used atheism as an excuse to kill opposition and take their stuff.

I won't disagree with you on this point. Prime example is the Pope. I still don't think you're grasping the operation of Communism in relation to religion. I'd wager that a majority of the death created by the Soviet Union was under the rule of Stalin, who had his own motives, unrelated to religion for his murders. In fact, Stalin used the Russian Orthodox church as a motivation tool during the Great Patriotic War (Second World War). But what is it about a totalitarian government that keeps people in line and keeps them from revolting? Education. Who is providing education and ideas from outside the Communist party? Churches.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I can't. As a Christian I don't believe man is inherantly good. That includes Christian men. We all sin(miss the mark). That doesn't mean we are excused from our actions or that we can't make the world a better place by applying christian principles to our lives. The book of James says:

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Big deal. If you read what I wrote earlier I said that man is a part of nature and that it is by definition chaotic. War, violence, murder, those are all part of nature.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Cheese

ROFLMAO....well geez I forget one link and CBA gets all excited! LOL...

Enough?

Where in all that do you say what Christian you were quoting who reputed democracy. Where in all that do you show how this person represents a common Christian world view?

All you have appeared to have done is add some articles from your favorite atheistic web sites. It is interesting that an Atheist's faith is so strong that they can deny even the most basic historical facts. The idea that communism and atheism isn't compatibly is laughable Both China and the Soviet Union thought they were and adopted it as their State policy. The few churches that the Soviets allowed were under direct control of the State. They had to send their sermons into be inspected before they could be preached. Each church member had to register with the government and were restricted from obtaining membership with the communist party or a position within the government. I have a friend whose family is Lutheran. His grandparents had to flee the Soviet Union on account of their faith.

You can argue if the cause was because the communists were atheists or if they just used atheism like many despots have used even peaceful religions as a tool to gain power or territory. But the point still remains that Atheistic governments have been responsible for murder on a large scale. To suggest that all the evil in the world is caused by religion is false. To suggest that a world without religion would be a better place has not been demonstrated within history and judging by the examples we have is highly doubtful.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

But the point still remains that Atheistic governments have been responsible for murder on a large scale.

Communist governments........

[Hakan]

OT:

I just finished watching the movie 'Jesus Camp'

Has anyone else seen it? It scared the **** out of me.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by kermitology

I won't disagree with you on this point. Prime example is the Pope. I still don't think you're grasping the operation of Communism in relation to religion. I'd wager that a majority of the death created by the Soviet Union was under the rule of Stalin, who had his own motives, unrelated to religion for his murders. In fact, Stalin used the Russian Orthodox church as a motivation tool during the Great Patriotic War (Second World War). But what is it about a totalitarian government that keeps people in line and keeps them from revolting? Education. Who is providing education and ideas from outside the Communist party? Churches.

The Pope like Stalin were motivated by a desire for power. Whether they used religion or ideology to rally the troops is mostly irrelevant. The cause was their lust for power and things. Being religious or not didn't change the results.

Big deal. If you read what I wrote earlier I said that man is a part of nature and that it is by definition chaotic. War, violence, murder, those are all part of nature.

OK I personally think James said it better(and of course first) But, we essentially agree.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Hakan

OT:

I just finished watching the movie 'Jesus Camp'

Has anyone else seen it? It scared the **** out of me.

Yeah...a fun little piece of trash isnt it?

At Jesus Camp, the daily activities include standard camp fare such as spelunking and go-karts, but they also include speaking in tongues and smashing coffee mugs emblazoned with the word "government". Children learn that "science doesn't prove anything," and learn to consider themselves part of an Army of God. They are compelled to pledge that they will fight to end abortion. They are even pushed into publicly confessing their impure thoughts, and many of them cry and wail charismatically.

The camp director explains that she admires the way Islamic cultures raise children so devoted they will risk their lives for their faith. When we ultimately see several of the campers being placed by their parents on the steps of the Capitol with tape over their mouths, protesting abortion, the real purpose of this camp is driven home.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0486358/

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by kermitology

Communist governments........

How about "governments with an atheistic religious view"?

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

The Pope like Stalin were motivated by a desire for power. Whether they used religion or ideology to rally the troops is mostly irrelevant. The cause was their lust for power and things. Being religious or not didn't change the results.

That's my point. You've come to it in a round about way, but you've come to it. That's where this murder and destruction come from.. It has no bearing on religion.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

How about "governments with an atheistic religious view"?

Pick a lane slappy! Read the above two posts.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Where in all that do you say what Christian you were quoting who reputed democracy. Where in all that do you show how this person represents a common Christian world view?

All you have appeared to have done is add some articles from your favorite atheistic web sites. It is interesting that an Atheist's faith is so strong that they can deny even the most basic historical facts. The idea that communism and atheism isn't compatibly is laughable Both China and the Soviet Union thought they were and adopted it as their State policy. The few churches that the Soviets allowed were under direct control of the State. They had to send their sermons into be inspected before they could be preached. Each church member had to register with the government and were restricted from obtaining membership with the communist party or a position within the government. I have a friend whose family is Lutheran. His grandparents had to flee the Soviet Union on account of their faith.

You can argue if the cause was because the communists were atheists or if they just used atheism like many despots have used even peaceful religions as a tool to gain power or territory. But the point still remains that Atheistic governments have been responsible for murder on a large scale. To suggest that all the evil in the world is caused by religion is false. To suggest that a world without religion would be a better place has not been demonstrated within history and judging by the examples we have is highly doubtful.

If you manage for one second to lift your head up from your bible youd notice that two of the links I provided were not Atheist specific websites...because I knew youd say that. That leads me to believe that you in fact dont bother to look at anything besides the book that is pasted to your lap. Beyond that where in the heck did I suggest it was a Christians viewpoint that I posted?
Heres a bit more reading for you from the same article...its history you need to understand before you can spout off the magic that sits on your lap.
By the way the article is a Deists viewpoint...

Age of the Irrational
In 1348 a plague would break out in central Asia. By 1349 this plague had reached every corner of Europe. In the cities of France, Italy and Germany, much of the population would die within a year and in England half the population of London would die.
To the Christians of Medieval Europe the long promised Apocalypse had arrived, and Jesus would surely return soon to claim the faithful and punish the sinners. The Church had taught for ten centuries that all events, natural, political, and social must follow the Bible and all knowledge is revealed there. All events are the work of God for His ultimate purpose. So millions stopped planting crops, stopped planning for the future, and awaited salvation as Christian leaders promised.
But Jesus didn't come and the death continued. In 1357-62 a second outbreak would kill millions more, still no Jesus. All of this was made worse by famine, political chaos, and war. "It must be the work of the Devil" proclaimed Bishops while doomsday prophets lined every street corner. But, It must be those in league with Satan, so who are they would ask?
Never mind the seven-year Tribulation had already gone beyond seven years, and anyone who mentioned this must be in league with the Devil! The great Satan hunt would begin. First came the Jews, the favorite target of church hatred and abuse.
Dragged from the ghettos that Papal decree had imprisoned them in, entire families would be burned alive or tortured to death. Thousands more would flee to Poland and to Islamic nations seeking safety. The screeching mobs failed to notice the clean streets and the lack of filth on every corner. They also failed to notice the absence of dead rats that lay with the Christian dead as whole families fell before the Black Death. Kosher laws were very strict on sanitation.
Murdering Jews didn't stop the plague, so the hunt went on. The Inquisition worked day and night to root out Satan and his followers as the screams of thousands of men, women, and even children echoed in the torture chambers of Europe. Unabated, the Black Death continued its dance across Europe as thousands of rats danced in the streets. In Germany the Hansel and Gretal fairy tale has its origins in this period as pregnant women and even children were roasted alive in ovens to drive out the Devil. It wasn't witches (there is no such thing as witches, just those who think they are) it was the Inquisition inflicting this horror. Things became so absurd that even domestic cats were burned at the stake, which produced even more rats.
Even the church itself and the Pope came under attack in the chaos. Jan Huss of Bohemia (1372-1415) openly accused the church of conspiracy and gets burned at the stake for his trouble. This led to the Husite Rebellion under Jon Milic (d. 1574) archdeacon of Prague. The crushing of this rebellion devastated much of central Europe. Catholics and later Protestants alike engaged in an orgy of murder and brutality that lasted long after the plague ended. In the end the plagues subsided, and Europe's population would not recover until the 17th century. The witch hunting and Inquisition also ended by the 18th century as well. From 400 AD to the late 1500s Europe had progressed little in science and all learning/inquiry was relegated to religious dogma. Reason never had a chance.
Today we know the Black Death (bubonic plague) is a disease carried by fleas on rats whose bites kills humans and rats. This has nothing to do with anything in the Bible or any Apocalypse. Its death toll would rival a nuclear war today. It is just a part of nature that today can be combated with vaccines. Science and the scientific method gave us the vaccine. By the dawn of the 19th century science and the scientific method would disentangle itself from superstition and dogma. A product of the Enlightenment, the scientific method would produce jet aircraft, the Space Shuttle, super computers, and biotechnology. The average person today lives two-three times longer than just 200 years ago.
Yet according to fundamentalists like Phillip E. Johnson in his book Reason in the Balance, the case against Naturalism in science, law, and education, and other Christian fundamentalists, the child roasters and cat killers were correct after all and science has everything all wrong. Everything we know of modern science is wrong, as he hints at some evil atheist conspiracy to lock out God in the science community. His proof is simply the fact everything that happens isn't contributed to some supernatural theme as opposed to it just happened.


http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/fundienazis/beyond_reason.htm

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Cheese

If you manage for one second to lift your head up from your bible youd notice that two of the links I provided were not Atheist specific websites...because I knew youd say that. That leads me to believe that you in fact dont bother to look at anything besides the book that is pasted to your lap.

In all honesty if you post several links at once I'm not apt to read every article fully. I am responding to what you said usually. I did make a couple comments regarding some of the main points in a few of those articles.

Beyond that where in the heck did I suggest it was a Christians viewpoint that I posted?

You said:One bitter fundamentalist had this to say, "democracy is the cause of all world problems...humans are under the law of God, and thus they CANNOT do anything they want or speak anything they wish to speak...democracy ultimately started with Satan...we can't rule ourselves. God must rule us...those who actually set up America, and drew up the laws were people who did not favor Christianity. Christians living during that time disagreed with those in power or rather the founding fathers. They saw them as ultra liberals, and of course, they were."

What you failed to say was: Which Christian made that statement and what makes you conclude that he/she represents most Christians view of democracy?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I'll let scriptures answer your question:

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I thought God was supposed to be benevolent. This sounds more like he's egomaniacal.

What about Christians who don't truly accept what they've been spoon-fed, and just go through the motions?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

In all honesty if you post several links at once I'm not apt to read every article fully. I am responding to what you said usually. I did make a couple comments regarding some of the main points in a few of those articles.



You said:One bitter fundamentalist had this to say, "democracy is the cause of all world problems...humans are under the law of God, and thus they CANNOT do anything they want or speak anything they wish to speak...democracy ultimately started with Satan...we can't rule ourselves. God must rule us...those who actually set up America, and drew up the laws were people who did not favor Christianity. Christians living during that time disagreed with those in power or rather the founding fathers. They saw them as ultra liberals, and of course, they were."

What you failed to say was: Which Christian made that statement and what makes you conclude that he/she represents most Christians view of democracy?

LOL..man just like a bloodhound you are...LOL.
I left it at work...but it could be this one....and I didnt say he represented the majority...but I do believe he represents your kind...or he speaks closely of your kind. Everything you have posted in this thread is pretty much bang on with that statement. God certainly rules you and everything you think and do.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/index.htm