Israel and Lebanon now fighting

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

So you're going to stick with that "I don't support Bush" stuff are you? For a guy that doesn't like Bush, there is not a single thing that his adminstration has done that you've been against.

Now on to the information you presented, you flat out LIED. You got caught in that lie and now you have to live with the egg on your face. The facts are all there, INCLUDING a link that outlines exactly what resolution was vetoed. 10 of the last 11 USA vetos were America directly protecting Israel from censure. You said, "So it's not like they are VETOing everthing that might be against Israel," which is exactly what they have done. YOU LIED. You exaggerated the facts by trying to blow the numbers out of proportion, especially when you based them on the subject matter being debated. I don't mind honest mistakes, but you flat out lied, and then tried to shake it off like it didn't matter. Fact of the matter is that it does matter. It changes the dynamic of the information greatly and that equates to a lie.

Whatever Lanny, just because your paranoid about everything in life doesn't mean I lied. I exaggerated nothing and lied about nothing. The US has used their VETO 11 times since 1996 out of 616 UN resolutions. Thats what I am telling you and those are the facts. Now, What I am not going to do is list off every one of those resloution so you can see if at least 23 of them are resloutions regarding the mid east and Israel. I don't have the time. But if you want to go around and accuse people of lieing that is your own deal.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I think you've said that a couple times but you don't seem to have anything against attacks that kill Lebanese (or Canadian) people or destroy the infrastructure in that country.

It's like saying you have nothing against the family down the street but you don't mind if someone kills the father and cuts off their electricity because a second cousin of that family did something wrong.

I am surprised that some of the pro-war posters are complaining about breached UN resolutions. It almost seems to me that you are applying a double-standard that dictates that certain states must comply but others are free to ignore UN advice as they see fit.

I don't think anyone is PRO war. Some of us just believe that a country has a right to defend itself.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I don't think anyone is PRO war. Some of us just believe that a country has a right to defend itself.

At what point does the offender become the attacker? Is Isreal's defensive reaction limitless, or is there some point at which they've overdone it? Just wondering where you might draw that line, or draw it at all.

[jolinar of malkshor]

[quote=Lanny_MacDonald]So you're going to stick with that "I don't support Bush" stuff are you? For a guy that doesn't like Bush, there is not a single thing that his adminstration has done that you've been against.quote]

Lets look at what I have said before, or maybe you don't want to see it because then you would be the one caught with your pants down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald
Uh huh, and you have backed that up so well. And what makes me a "wing nut"? That I agree with the vast majority of the world that George W. Bush is an incompetnant fool and a danger to world peace? Yup, a real wing nut!





Seems like you did to me and to several others in this thread.

And who should decide who these "radicals" are? I certainly hope not you! I wouldn't trust you to pick the color of socks someone should wear in the morning.

You're also going to have to point out these "fanatical Islamic governments" you are refering to? I hope the fellas your hero (Dubya) likes to hold hands with (that would be the Saudis) is at the top of that list?

And why can't you compare a small group of right wing religious zealots in the USA to anyone in the middle east? A zealot is a zealot. Both have made reference to a religious faction being eliminated. Both have openly suggested the assassination of world leaders. Both have encouraged politically bombings of innocents to further their twisted agendas. Why are they not comparable? Because you don't know anything about the middle east or Islam or the people in general? Or is because you just can't believe that anything in the west could be wrong or have an agenda?

You're going to have to explain yourself in some pretty good detail. You've painted yourself into a corner IMO.


I have a challenge for you. Find anywhere on this forum where I said I like, support or agree with George Bush and his personal ideas and agenda. From day one before he was even elected I knew the guy was a complete ######. Never have I supported him or have I bought into the ideas as to why he invade Iraq. Doesn't mean I can't support getting rid of a mass murderer who gasses his own people.

You say"seems like you did to me and others" well show me then wise guy.


And

jolinar of malkshor vbmenu_register("postmenu_460981", true);
Scoring Winger


Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 512



Regardless of what other religions teach, This thread is about Islamic teachings in the public school system in Saudia Arabia. Don't push the topic off course by bringing in offshot religions. We all know every religion has their fanatics. However, no other mainstream religion teaches such misgivings toward another non believer on the planet.

It is really terrifying that a country that is suppose to be a western ally is brain washing their citizens. And I agree that Bush is attempting to do the same. Good thing US presidents can only sit for 2 terms.

http://www.calgarypuck.com/forum/sho...highlight=bush

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

At what point does the offender become the attacker? Is Isreal's defensive reaction limitless, or is there some point at which they've overdone it? Just wondering where you might draw that line, or draw it at all.

They can't go in and kill a few of these door knobs. They need to do the job properly. If they don't the Terrorists will realize there is no real consequences to their actions. If the Lebanon government could deal with these radicals then I would agree that Israel is taking this military action to far but the Lebanon government can't deal with them.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I think you've said that a couple times but you don't seem to have anything against attacks that kill Lebanese (or Canadian) people or destroy the infrastructure in that country.

It's like saying you have nothing against the family down the street but you don't mind if someone kills the father and cuts off their electricity because a second cousin of that family did something wrong.

I am surprised that some of the pro-war posters are complaining about breached UN resolutions. It almost seems to me that you are applying a double-standard that dictates that certain states must comply but others are free to ignore UN advice as they see fit.

Where have I ever said that it was good for Israel to kill innocent Lebanon civilians?

I acknowledge collateral damage yes, but certainly don't want it to happen.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Now on to the information you presented, you flat out LIED.

No he never lied. You just can't get it past your thick, stubbern head that someone else was right.

I guess the "I know attitude everything" runs rampant in Lanny land.

[Azure]

http://camera.org/index.asp?x_contex...x_article=1148

[spiteface]

Originally Posted by Azure

Airport? Excuse me for asking, but I thought all the aiports in Lebanon were shut down, and that the Canadian/American or any foreign government was doing the extraction by military forces.

??

The Calgary airport?

[spiteface]

What is that supposed to mean?

Its hilarious that you DEFEND, support and sympathize for a TERRORIST run organization. In fact, its SICK.


And you defending Israel and all its butchering is what.. a fight for democracy? Israel knows all along that Hizbollah arent gonna release the soldiers yet they went ahead with the attacks and have now brought Lebanon to rubble.


That comment is sick, pathetic and utterly filled with ignorance and hatred towards Israel.

Did i insult you?


Just because they attack the country you would love to see whiped off the face of the map, does not make them "freedom fighters."

Just because they defended the south of Lebanon ever since Israel has come to occupy the region, and have stood up as the only group to eliminate Israel from occupation in history, and continue to fight for land in Shebaa Farms... makes you wonder.


But I guess for a guy that supports annexing a free, legal and democratic nation, every terrorist activity is a fight for "freedom."

Lebanon = Free, legal and democratic. Why does Israel only stand for democracy. Just a few months ago Bush was encouraging the arabs to use Lebanon as an example of democracy, but now that Israel's involved, you knew there had to be a new point of view about Lebanon.

[spiteface]

Originally Posted by transplant99

According to most...that simply hasn't happened....well at least according to the left. They say its a bigger mess than was possible....yet you are claiming it done. Which is it?


The US had every conceivable right to go to war with them. Where do you think the 9/11 conspirators got the training and resoources to carry out what happened? Oh...i forgot, that never really happened and it was a controlled demolition on the one of the worlds most highly guarded buildings...and same thing at the pentagon.

Got it.



They are?

If you say so.



You're not saying that independant countries with a commodity to sell to their biggest buyer...are puppets are you?

Funny thing here....by a HUGE margin the one country that supplies more oil to the USA more than anybody else? Canada.

Damn...maybe Harper is a Bush lackey!! But then so were Martin and Cretian right?



Practical sell outs?


I thought being practical was what most people wanted? Again...Im lost.



Well..clearly..... Canada...they have more oil.


Beyond that...Iran has a bunch....Syria has its share as well. Yet Im pretty darn sure they havent seen a US rocket in years.

Just...you know....using common sense and facts. Sorry to disrupt.

So the world, in particular, the Middle East is a better place now, ever since Mr. Bush took over office down south? Do you really think he has motivated the Arabs into moving to a more democratic scheme of ruling? To me it just looks like fuel to the fire and unfortunately things look like they are getting worse. The only way to end things and the only way it should've been initiated is through NEGOTIATIONS.

[spiteface]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

He speaks from a country that doesn't support terrosit organizations like Hezbollah. Your just as crazy as Lanny buddy. Israel did not set up the kidnapping of its soldiars by both Hamas and Hezbollah and then ask them to start fireing missles willy nilly into their country.

I agree with you that Lebanon is kind of stuck in the middle. They are trying to build a democracy but they are also responsible for these groups that operate in their country. If they cannot manage themselves they should be asking the UN for help not Syria.

Israel has a right to defend its self and if Lebanon cannot stop the terrorists from shootin missles over the border and kidnapping members of their military then they have a right to stop it themselves.

As for Israel not being able to crush Hezbollah. First you dont want them to enter Lebanon then Israel should be able to crush them in days. The USA can't stop terrorists in IRAQ and you think Israel should be able to stop Hezzbollah. It's called Guarilla warfare. These terorists hide all their weapons in civilian houses and work underground. Think about it.
That is why there is 200 dead compared to 20. If you want to blame these deaths on anyone maybe you should be asking Hezbollah why they are hiding all thier weapons in these places and firing missles from residential areas. If Israel wanted they could carpet bomb the entire city and be done with them.

Ok so tell me this, when Israel has 9000 arabs in their prisons, you tell me if the world would stand by and watch any arab country do to Israel what Israel is doing now to Lebanon. You think anybody would let that fly?

You really think Hizbollah is a threat to Israel? The only reason they've been able to survive is because they've been so persistent on liberating all of Lebanon. You know that Hizbollah didn't exist in the initial Israeli occupation of Lebanon, and only came into existence to defend the south from the oppresion of Israel?

[Kobasew fan]

Even though this was not directed at me I have to chime in here.

Originally Posted by spiteface

And you defending Israel and all its butchering is what.. a fight for democracy? Israel knows all along that Hizbollah arent gonna release the soldiers yet they went ahead with the attacks and have now brought Lebanon to rubble.

Granted Isreal could probably be more careful with their attacks on Lebanon to minimize the casualties. What do you expect Isreal to do, open there borders and tell Hezbollah to come in and kidnap soldiers and fire rockets at there cities and not do anything? They are not fighting for democracy as per say but I would say they are trying to defend themselves. However, as I said above they should probably be doing more to prevent casualties.

Originally Posted by spiteface

Just because they defended the south of Lebanon ever since Israel has come to occupy the region, and have stood up as the only group to eliminate Israel from occupation in history, and continue to fight for land in Shebaa Farms... makes you wonder.

Based on this statement it sounds like you think that Isreal should be wiped out completely, or am I wrong? Isreal is an established country and has every right to exist as do the people in Lebanon. Isreal will attack when they are provoked and I don't blame them for this. The kidnapping of soldiers and the rocket attacks on Isreal cities is definatly provocation.

[spiteface]

Granted Isreal could probably be more careful with their attacks on Lebanon to minimize the casualties. What do you expect Isreal to do, open there borders and tell Hezbollah to come in and kidnap soldiers and fire rockets at there cities and not do anything? They are not fighting for democracy as per say but I would say they are trying to defend themselves. However, as I said above they should probably be doing more to prevent casualties.


What they should do is negotiate. They've been doing it all along. They put themselves in this war and should expect things as such to occur. When you have 9000 of your enemies soldiers don't expect the arabs to sit around idle. They will not put up with it. Period.


Based on this statement it sounds like you think that Isreal should be wiped out completely, or am I wrong? Isreal is an established country and has every right to exist as do the people in Lebanon. Isreal will attack when they are provoked and I don't blame them for this. The kidnapping of soldiers and the rocket attacks on Isreal cities is definatly provocation.

Lebanon is also an established country. What gives the right to Israel to enter its land, destroy its livelihood, and control its ppl? And you should get your story straight before asking questions. The soldiers were kidnapped, then Israel started its huge offensive, then Hizbollah returned with rockets. Those pictures you see on CNN of Haifa "burning up" are from like 5 days ago, and they show them over and over. Every picture of Lebanon is brand new demolition. You can't even compare. So if you think taking out an entire nation in Lebanon is enough justification for the kidnapping of 2 Israeli hostages, then you live in a different world than I do.

[if.away]

Originally Posted by spiteface

What they should do is negotiate. They've been doing it all along. They put themselves in this war and should expect things as such to occur. When you have 9000 of your enemies soldiers don't expect the arabs to sit around idle. They will not put up with it. Period.

Negotiate? With who? Negotiate with a terrorist organization who is nothing more than the hand of Iran and Syria and who has killed plenty of Israeli citizens in the past and in order to release more of its criminal kin it takes for no reason whatsoever 2 hostages and kills a bunch of soldiers? What else should Israel do? Maybe they should just jump back in the sea and give everything away.

What a great and novel idea! Let's negotiate with people who wish your destruction, give them what they want and at the same time encourage them to continue their actions in the future. I mean Hezbollah wanted *just* around 400 of their criminal buddies back, what about the other 8600? I guess more kidnappings should occur following that logic!

"Negotiations" or something resembling it will come in a week or so when the US throws its weight behind the cease fire calls. When the US will consider Hezbollah seriously weakened and set back a good number of years only at that point they'll "pressure" the Israelis into ending their little fun stomp. If the Syrians and Iranians are smart enough and realize that their gamble backfired, unless diversion and some time is what they really wanted to begin with, they'll let those soldiers go unless they want 2 more Ron Arads on their hands.

Originally Posted by spiteface

Lebanon is also an established country. What gives the right to Israel to enter its land, destroy its livelihood, and control its ppl?

Maybe you should get your story straight. You make it sound like there is some huge Israeli occupation of Lebanon while those poor Lebanese people work under their new overlord occupiers and their whips building the greatest star of David known to mankind.

How exactly is Israel controlling the Lebanese people? Is there some secret ground invasion you know and you're not telling us about? As of right now the most "entering" of land Israel has done is small incursions into south Lebanon to destroy tunnels and weapons caches used by Hezbollah, precisely the area the "established" country of Lebanon never had under their control because a radical foreign militia has more influence than the central government.

Lebanon sure is an "established" country if it can't control parts of its territory, its army is weaker than a foreign controlled militia, politics are dominated and controlled by Syria while the central government, who constantly refused to address western worries about Hezbollah for a good number of years, claims impotence and total lack of control in a situation like that. If Lebanon was independent as a truly established nation should be these attacks and their provocation would never have occurred. Now they're collectively paying the price for their inability to deal with internal problems which have spilled over and you can make sure the anti Syrian movement in Lebanon will gain a huge boost after this skirmish is over considering the large majority of Lebanese people don't appreciate being used as proxies by their neighbours in a war they don't intend on being part of.

[Nehkara]

Originally Posted by spiteface

Granted Isreal could probably be more careful with their attacks on Lebanon to minimize the casualties. What do you expect Isreal to do, open there borders and tell Hezbollah to come in and kidnap soldiers and fire rockets at there cities and not do anything? They are not fighting for democracy as per say but I would say they are trying to defend themselves. However, as I said above they should probably be doing more to prevent casualties.


What they should do is negotiate. They've been doing it all along. They put themselves in this war and should expect things as such to occur. When you have 9000 of your enemies soldiers don't expect the arabs to sit around idle. They will not put up with it. Period.


Based on this statement it sounds like you think that Isreal should be wiped out completely, or am I wrong? Isreal is an established country and has every right to exist as do the people in Lebanon. Isreal will attack when they are provoked and I don't blame them for this. The kidnapping of soldiers and the rocket attacks on Isreal cities is definatly provocation.

Lebanon is also an established country. What gives the right to Israel to enter its land, destroy its livelihood, and control its ppl? And you should get your story straight before asking questions. The soldiers were kidnapped, then Israel started its huge offensive, then Hizbollah returned with rockets. Those pictures you see on CNN of Haifa "burning up" are from like 5 days ago, and they show them over and over. Every picture of Lebanon is brand new demolition. You can't even compare. So if you think taking out an entire nation in Lebanon is enough justification for the kidnapping of 2 Israeli hostages, then you live in a different world than I do.

Haifa is being attacked every day multiple times.

Negotiate? With who? How? Do you just stop bombing Hezbollah, let them continue firing rockets at you, and wait for them to come to talk?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I have a challenge for you. Find anywhere on this forum where I said I like, support or agree with George Bush and his personal ideas and agenda. From day one before he was even elected I knew the guy was a complete ######. Never have I supported him or have I bought into the ideas as to why he invade Iraq. Doesn't mean I can't support getting rid of a mass murderer who gasses his own people.

You say"seems like you did to me and others" well show me then wise guy.


And

jolinar of malkshor vbmenu_register("postmenu_460981", true);
Scoring Winger


Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 512



Regardless of what other religions teach, This thread is about Islamic teachings in the public school system in Saudia Arabia. Don't push the topic off course by bringing in offshot religions. We all know every religion has their fanatics. However, no other mainstream religion teaches such misgivings toward another non believer on the planet.

It is really terrifying that a country that is suppose to be a western ally is brain washing their citizens. And I agree that Bush is attempting to do the same. Good thing US presidents can only sit for 2 terms.

http://www.calgarypuck.com/forum/sho...highlight=bush

Wow, that's a nice little quote there. You're right, that takes back everything you've said in support of the Bush administration and their actions. I'm wrong, you're right, carry on.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

No he never lied. You just can't get it past your thick, stubbern head that someone else was right.

No, he's wrong and he lied. What he said has no relevance on the discussion at hand. It's pure disinformation meant to cloud the issue, and he has pretty well admitted to that. He said he knew the way the information really played out, referenced it in his original post, but then still brought up 106 votes that the vast majority of happened prior to the assassination of Kennedy. That is a bild faced lie.

A very good parallel would be of we were discussing who the best hockey club has been over the past decade and a Hab fan piped up and stated that the Canadiens had been the best, and their 24 Stanley Cups were proof of that! Great hstorical significance, but no relevance to the topic at hand, and essentially a bold faced lie.

I guess the "I know attitude everything" runs rampant in Lanny land.

Gee, what happened to that whiny bitch that claims he's always civil? Oh yeah, that story was as reliable as anything posted by Jokenar! Sucks when one of your allies gets shredded to ribbons by the GARBAGE he posts. Now I know why you don't post anything to back yourself up with. You know it will expose you as the fraud you are too.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Nehkara

Negotiate? With who? How? Do you just stop bombing Hezbollah, let them continue firing rockets at you, and wait for them to come to talk?

The time for negotiation was with Hamas, immediately after they were elected to replace the PLO as the people's representatives. Israel elected to refuse to acknowledge the new representaive group instead of acknowledging the will of the people. Democracy is a bitch that can sometimes blow up in your face. Bush and company have been preaching about democratic reforms and demanding democray spread in the region. Well why would people embrace democracy if their elected officials aren't acknowledged because of our preconceptions of them? Yes, Hamas was/is a terrorist organization, but they are the ones elected by the people to speak for them. That means we have to talk to the people through their elected officials. Whether we like them or not, no matter what they stand for or have done in the past, we have to accept them as the representatives of the people. That's where the negotiations should have taken place, with who, and in what fashion. Instead the Israelis assassinated and kidnapped the leadership, and bombed the residences of the other representatives. That was not a good reaction and greatly added to the mess spinning out of control.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Regorium

I still think the Arab population deserves a member on the Security Council. They're getting screwed and noone cares.

Go to un.org and check it out.....Qatar is on the Security Council, they are slated to be President in December. Syria was on the SC in 2003.

In fact, the ONLY UN member nation NOT allowed to serve on the SC is Israel.


CBC's timeline - July 12 - Hezbolah conducts a raid into Israel - killing 7, wounding 8 and capturing 2 soldiers. (for whatever reason - solidarity with Hamas, because Iran told them to, to prove they could do it)

Israel targets roads & bridges in S. Lebanon to prevent the kiddnappers from taking their hostage out of Lebanon

Israel sends in troops to look for the soldiers (Lanny's snatch & grab)

July 13 - Hezbolah responds with katushya rockets

AAAANNNNNDDDD......things escalate from there.


BTW spiteface - don't try to take the moral high ground because you have friends and relatives in Lebanon who are fleeing - I am sure that a few psoters here could claim the same, either in Lebanon or Israel. We could go back and forth all day.

Unless you are editing all the western news footage, your claim regarding the images from the area is just (as your posting name implys) spitefull and is not an anti-Israel statement. Wether you are implying that the Israelis are not suffering any damage or losses or that the Israelis are trying to elicit sympathy with a single image while the Lebanese images are multipule and therefore more truthful, the claim boarders on amti-semitisim.

The images from the area on the net & TV are generally current with the papers lagging a bit behind.