Emergency Alert for Dangerous Persons

[killer_carlson]

One of the last statements from the Queen was in respect of Canada and the attacks in Saskatchewan

https://twitter.com/user/status/1567471878817681473

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by Macman

I get that there are some Indigenous bands that are doing okay but maybe we should start asking or talking about wether living on reservations is even sustainable anymore. People shouldn’t be going without food, water or still dealing with TB and other things that most don’t even think about anymore. Or having to pay outrageous prices for food.

Throwing money doesn’t seem to work. I get that Indegenous groups want self government but maybe there needs to be a better third party involved that isn’t the government to make sure people’s basic needs are met.

It seems like trying to talk about accountability and transparency at this stage is a moot point. Especially when reading a post by Johnny199r. Is there not a way to get basic services even if you’re still living on the reserve?

The problem is:

1. Remote living off the land is pretty impractical now due to the way the world and economies are structured.
2. Any goodwill by First Nations to the government is long gone after residential schools.
3. First Nations have treaties which create obligations for the government (people want to try to forget that, but you can’t)
4. Many First Nations were on better land but historically were kicked off that land and given the garbage land by the government.
5. Impossible for any First Nation to raise income unless your land is in a very busy tourist area, extremely close to a city or is full of great farming land (unlikely!)
6. Obviously, the goal is to educate young First Nations people. Those who succeed probably won’t return, should they obtain higher education (with some limited exceptions) which drains the remaining pool, but allows people to support their family.
7. Why doesn’t the government just move First Nations people to the city?
- can’t force them - treaties
- also assimilation didn’t go so well for First Nations people the first time (trust us this time! We promise! Just like our police are there to help you l!!the govt cares!)
- if governments really were serious about this, I estimate it would cost about 1 trillion dollars to support these people, many of whom will be absolutely lost and require intensive supports to adjust and have positive outcomes.
8. Ultimately, no government is going to run on a platform to do something decisive and revolutionary to bridge this gap. It would be political suicide. White people wouldn’t vote for them and it would cost a ton.
9. This status quo will continue until the end of time. Try explaining to your 5 year old how they got lucky being born in Calgary rather than a remote First Nation where the health outcomes are about the same as some African countries.

I have thought about this issue to death. My wife is from a First Nation. Her family are all from the Rez. I travel to First Nations every week. It’s very sad when you really stop and think about it.

My mother in law has been told by the gas station attendant (are you sure you’re in the right part of town?) family members have been told as they walk by the mouthwash section of a pharmacy (you’re not going to drink that right?), MIL goes to a hospital and the nurse says “oh she’s drunk” - when she hasn’t been drinking. My wife is a prosecutor - on trial days, cops show up and say (in reference an accused last name) “oh is that your cousin??!! and laugh right in front of her.

We love to look down on Americans like we’re not as racist as them and we somewhere treat people better in Canada. What a load of crap. We have no reason to be smug.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

The problem is:

1. Remote living off the land is pretty impractical now due to the way the world and economies are structured.
2. Any goodwill by First Nations to the government is long gone after residential schools.
3. First Nations have treaties which create obligations for the government (people want to try to forget that, but you can’t)
4. Many First Nations were on better land but historically were kicked off that land and given the garbage land by the government.
5. Impossible for any First Nation to raise income unless your land is in a very busy tourist area, extremely close to a city or is full of great farming land (unlikely!)
6. Obviously, the goal is to educate young First Nations people. Those who succeed probably won’t return, should they obtain higher education (with some limited exceptions) which drains the remaining pool, but allows people to support their family.
7. Why doesn’t the government just move First Nations people to the city?
- can’t force them - treaties
- also assimilation didn’t go so well for First Nations people the first time (trust us this time! We promise! Just like our police are there to help you l!!the govt cares!)
- if governments really were serious about this, I estimate it would cost about 1 trillion dollars to support these people, many of whom will be absolutely lost and require intensive supports to adjust and have positive outcomes.
8. Ultimately, no government is going to run on a platform to do something decisive and revolutionary to bridge this gap. It would be political suicide. White people wouldn’t vote for them and it would cost a ton.
9. This status quo will continue until the end of time. Try explaining to your 5 year old how they got lucky being born in Calgary rather than a remote First Nation where the health outcomes are about the same as some African countries.

I have thought about this issue to death. My wife is from a First Nation. Her family are all from the Rez. I travel to First Nations every week. It’s very sad when you really stop and think about it.

My mother in law has been told by the gas station attendant (are you sure you’re in the right part of town?) family members have been told as they walk by the mouthwash section of a pharmacy (you’re not going to drink that right?), MIL goes to a hospital and the nurse says “oh she’s drunk” - when she hasn’t been drinking. My wife is a prosecutor - on trial days, cops show up and say (in reference an accused last name) “oh is that your cousin??!! and laugh right in front of her.

We love to look down on Americans like we’re not as racist as them and we somewhere treat people better in Canada. What a load of crap. We have no reason to be smug.

What many in Canada don't realize is that we live in an apartheid system. It's a British colonial way of doing things, and it's very similar to the way South Africa did things. The main differences are that Canada had a lower indigenous population as a proportion of the whole, and Canada had enough land to locate the victims far enough away from the general population that colonists didn't have to observe the injustice on a day to day basis.

The reserve system is key to avoiding genocide of the indigenous people. Removing the system would just turn indigenous people into a lower class that would eventually be wiped out all together, as they would lose their culture, language, history, etc...The issue is that Canada hasn't upheld their obligations under the treaties. This isn't about "handouts", it's about supplying basic needs like drinking water, roads, infrastructure, etc.. Canada isn't as bad, overall, as the USA in the way that it distributes public funds among ethnicities and incomes, but when it comes to the indigenous people of Canada, we're probably just as bad.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

The problem is:

1. Remote living off the land is pretty impractical now due to the way the world and economies are structured.
2. Any goodwill by First Nations to the government is long gone after residential schools.
3. First Nations have treaties which create obligations for the government (people want to try to forget that, but you can’t)
4. Many First Nations were on better land but historically were kicked off that land and given the garbage land by the government.
5. Impossible for any First Nation to raise income unless your land is in a very busy tourist area, extremely close to a city or is full of great farming land (unlikely!)
6. Obviously, the goal is to educate young First Nations people. Those who succeed probably won’t return, should they obtain higher education (with some limited exceptions) which drains the remaining pool, but allows people to support their family.
7. Why doesn’t the government just move First Nations people to the city?
- can’t force them - treaties
- also assimilation didn’t go so well for First Nations people the first time (trust us this time! We promise! Just like our police are there to help you l!!the govt cares!)
- if governments really were serious about this, I estimate it would cost about 1 trillion dollars to support these people, many of whom will be absolutely lost and require intensive supports to adjust and have positive outcomes.
8. Ultimately, no government is going to run on a platform to do something decisive and revolutionary to bridge this gap. It would be political suicide. White people wouldn’t vote for them and it would cost a ton.
9. This status quo will continue until the end of time. Try explaining to your 5 year old how they got lucky being born in Calgary rather than a remote First Nation where the health outcomes are about the same as some African countries.

I have thought about this issue to death. My wife is from a First Nation. Her family are all from the Rez. I travel to First Nations every week. It’s very sad when you really stop and think about it.

My mother in law has been told by the gas station attendant (are you sure you’re in the right part of town?) family members have been told as they walk by the mouthwash section of a pharmacy (you’re not going to drink that right?), MIL goes to a hospital and the nurse says “oh she’s drunk” - when she hasn’t been drinking. My wife is a prosecutor - on trial days, cops show up and say (in reference an accused last name) “oh is that your cousin??!! and laugh right in front of her.

We love to look down on Americans like we’re not as racist as them and we somewhere treat people better in Canada. What a load of crap. We have no reason to be smug.

Thank you for that summary. I realize that the issues facing the FN people are enormous, and a lot of effort and money will be needed to come even close to fixing the problem. However, just as the problems are numerous, perhaps the solutions are likewise just as numerous. Could you please list some of the solutions that you see as a starting point e.g. education, employment, casinos, sharing income among various reserves, relocating reserves closer to civilization, etc.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

The problem is:

1. Remote living off the land is pretty impractical now due to the way the world and economies are structured.
3. First Nations have treaties which create obligations for the government (people want to try to forget that, but you can’t)

Great prospective,

I'd add two points here that I think often get glazed over.

1. Even if it was plausible to live off the land these days, I'm not sure we would look back a hunter/gather lifestyles, health care, living conditions... and consider it an acceptable standard of living for modern day Canadian.
I'm not making the claim that we should look at reservation life and consider it an acceptable standard of living, I'm just saying that if we had a subset of society living freely off the land without modern shelter or transportation or healthcare, without some form of sewage or water treatment... the conversations would be the same. The appeal to nature / noble savage myths that are used to say that just leaving indigenous peoples alone are not a cure-all for the problems they are facing.

3. Clearly the treaties are not working, I think there is a very good argument that they need to be re-negotiated. I'm just not sure there is enough good-faith between the two sides to have honest negotiations. Leaning on broken / out dated laws and rhetorically attacking eachothers right to exist isn't a great place to start from in negotiations, then you start getting into the challenge of who Canada would even be negotiating with, there would need to be hundreds of different groups represented all with different problems as you pointed out. I don't even know how either side would approach the prospect of renegotiating the treaties.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Thank you for that summary. I realize that the issues facing the FN people are enormous, and a lot of effort and money will be needed to come even close to fixing the problem. However, just as the problems are numerous, perhaps the solutions are likewise just as numerous. Could you please list some of the solutions that you see as a starting point e.g. education, employment, casinos, sharing income among various reserves, relocating reserves closer to civilization, etc.

Lots of possible ideas, but practical implementation is another story.

The first thing is to recognize that:
- the damage done through multiple generations of residential schools is pretty much incomprehensible, in the most literal sense of the word.
- our lens of capitalism (and the inherent assumptions that come with it) still does not translate very well to the world FN people have been living in. Not because the concept of 'personal property' is totally foreign like it was a couple centuries ago...but access to equitable economic participation remains very very difficult (both in terms of what they can 'give' and what they can 'take').


Obviously a lot more to unpack there, but I'll try to answer your question with my germ of an idea (that is hopelessly idealistic):
- the goal is integration without assimilation, much like we see with a lot of immigrant populations.
- reserves would essentially transform to 'holiday homes', while we figure out a way to establish new communities in/around areas with heavy immigrant populations, while beefing up the social resources that have more successfully found+helped those groups
- currently it's a bit of a dilemma where you have to be essentially all-in or all-out of the Rez system, and that needs to be broken, but without 'taking away' the comforting aspects of the rez


Another somewhat related would be an idea to pay people (above and beyond) to go to school - available for any age. One option would be creating remedial programs within community colleges (BVC here) to play catch-up from generations of weak educational resourcing, but it could apply to any program. If it means a few generations of literal 'career-learners' that's great.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Thank you for that summary. I realize that the issues facing the FN people are enormous, and a lot of effort and money will be needed to come even close to fixing the problem. However, just as the problems are numerous, perhaps the solutions are likewise just as numerous. Could you please list some of the solutions that you see as a starting point e.g. education, employment, casinos, sharing income among various reserves, relocating reserves closer to civilization, etc.

The truth and reconciliation commission calls to action report was a good starting point: https://ehprnh2mwo3.exactdn.com/wp-c...n_English2.pdf

[SeeGeeWhy]

I’m embarrassed to admit I’ve never read nor could claim to understand Treaty 7, which is the closest thing to a foundational legal arrangement as any for anyone in this territory. Feels like a game is being played where only a handful of folks know the rules, and that has always bothered me.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by SeeGeeWhy

I’m embarrassed to admit I’ve never read nor could claim to understand Treaty 7, which is the closest thing to a foundational legal arrangement as any for anyone in this territory. Feels like a game is being played where only a handful of folks know the rules, and that has always bothered me.

https://www.cirnac.gc.ca/eng/1100100.../1581292336658

[Derek Sutton]

https://globalnews.ca/news/9121074/s...illers-record/

Just astounding.
47 Case Files
125 Charges
59 convictions
65 times caught breaching release conditions
18 Assaults including 7x against his common law spouse
4 previous standings, two repeat victims

What a failing of our justice system. And those poor victims, 7x he beat the mother of his children, 2x he stabbed her parents. One can only think that they were protecting her by keeping her location from him. This guy should have never been out of prison so soon.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

https://globalnews.ca/news/9121074/s...illers-record/

Just astounding.
47 Case Files
125 Charges
59 convictions
65 times caught breaching release conditions
18 Assaults including 7x against his common law spouse
4 previous standings, two repeat victims

What a failing of our justice system. And those poor victims, 7x he beat the mother of his children, 2x he stabbed her parents. One can only think that they were protecting her by keeping her location from him. This guy should have never been out of prison so soon.

If there are thousands of men out there walking around who have been 7x convicted of assaulting their partner, then I'm willing to pay the increased taxes for them to be incarcerated for longer.

Maybe it prevents this once in awhile, and nobody should have to live in fear that someone who has assaulted you SEVEN TIMES is getting out and coming back for another round.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

If there are thousands of men out there walking around who have been 7x convicted of assaulting their partner, then I'm willing to pay the increased taxes for them to be incarcerated for longer.

Maybe it prevents this once in awhile, and nobody should have to live in fear that someone who has assaulted you SEVEN TIMES is getting out and coming back for another round.

Is you position then life in prison after 7 assaults?


I think it’s a good question for those with more knowledge is based on this disclosure of the record is this person special.?

[afc wimbledon]

My mum founded and ran a domestic violence refuge back in the UK, multiple assaults on wives or girlfriends tend to be the rule with domestic abusers, the only thing noteworthy is he was arrested so many times for it, sadly suffering in silence tends to be more common, I suspect that would be because she lived with her parents and they called the cops, but again I will reiterate his record is nothing particularly special which is why the parole board didn't see him as a violent offender, these assessments are made in comparison if you will, only the top 10 or 15% of the most violent will be considered violent offenders and he doesnt even touch the bar

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by GGG

Is you position then life in prison after 7 assaults?


I think it’s a good question for those with more knowledge is based on this disclosure of the record is this person special.?

I don't like life in prison but I think a sentence that resulted on 6-8 years of actual incarceration would be absolutely justified here. Maybe even 10. I get that requires a longer sentence due to statutory release.

I think Cliff's point about violent crime being mostly young men is a good one, so a bit of age helps.

And the penal system shouldn't be about punishment, imo, it should have two primary functions: protect society and rehabilitate people.

In this case I think his partner (and her family!) were done a pretty big disservice by the system. Nobody would have heard about it if he just got out and assaulted her again, but how demoralizing would that be for her? Society does a bad job with First Nations, but I think First Nations women especially get the short end of basically every stick, and she deserved more protection from Canada than she got.

Like I said before- If 7 domestic assaults isn't that special then I don't care - I'll pay higher taxes. Because someone who has been assaulted 7 times shouldn't have to dread the 8th assault in 2 years.

[Azure]

So are we talking about 7 individual records of assault? And he was still allowed to walk?

I mean what more do we need to lock someone up for longer than nothing at all?

I don't get it.

What a miserable failure by what is turning out to be a rather pathetic justice system. Our country should be embarrassed by this debacle.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by Azure

So are we talking about 7 individual records of assault? And he was still allowed to walk?

I mean what more do we need to lock someone up for longer than nothing at all?

I don't get it.

What a miserable failure by what is turning out to be a rather pathetic justice system. Our country should be embarrassed by this debacle.

No. 18 assault convictions, 7 of which were against his ex spouse. And he’d stabbed each of her parents once before to. The justice system is an embarrassment.

[tkflames]

I am a strong believer in rehabilitation. However, I interpret rehabilitation the opposite to many. Rehabilitation means you only have a minimum sentence. When you can demonstrate rehabilitation, only then should you be released. The parameter for demonstrating rehabilitation can obviously discussed and should suit the triggers of the crime, but I cannot see any scenario where anyone believes that he (or someone like him) should be anywhere near a street.

It's comparable to when the police warn of a dangerous person (or high risk reoffender) being released. This is an oxymoron to a system that believes in rehabilitation.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by tkflames

I am a strong believer in rehabilitation. However, I interpret rehabilitation the opposite to many. Rehabilitation means you only have a minimum sentence. When you can demonstrate rehabilitation, only then should you be released. The parameter for demonstrating rehabilitation can obviously discussed and should suit the triggers of the crime, but I cannot see any scenario where anyone believes that he (or someone like him) should be anywhere near a street.

It's comparable to when the police warn of a dangerous person (or high risk reoffender) being released. This is an oxymoron to a system that believes in rehabilitation.

All sentences being life sentences likely doesn’t get past charter protections.

Ideally though something like that could exist.

[afc wimbledon]

The problem is you guys may not want the US system but that's what you end up with, if you are going to make the world safe by long sentences then they have to be until the guy is into his 60's as jail makes offenders more violent not less, and longer sentences without the leverage of early release will make that worse.

If you lock this guy up for 10 years instead of 4 you get a far more violent offender at the end of the 10 years, there is no middle ground here where you just lock them up for an extra year or 2, that makes things worse, you go all the way and end up with vast numbers of native men locked away for life in the same way the US locks up Black men, you have to be comfortable with this, and realise the main reason you are locking them up is because of both their god awful backgrounds that we created and the fact they cant afford the sort of representation most of us would pay for.

[Derek Sutton]

^Or the (repeat) victims and their community could sleep easy at night and live without fear knowing that the perpetrator is locked away for another 20 some years. And how on earth do you get someone more violent? He had reoffend multiple times with little to no jail time and went on to commit one of the worse mass murders ever in Canada. You are primarily locking them up to keep their community and then public at large safe, regardless of how they got in their situation.

I’m not sure where you’d draw the line at protecting the victims, is it after the 8th attack? 10th attack? 20th attack? Because you certainly seem ok with slaps on the wrist after a 7th attack. I’d say if someone is attacked a third time, there is no way they should have to ever worry about being attacked again.