[News] Monahan knows what's on the line this season: 'I have a lot to prove'

[GioforPM]

Before his final concussion Ferland played 14 games for the Canucks, most commonly with Leivo and Sutter. He got 5 points (1-4). In contrast, he got 40 points (similar to his Calgary production) playing with Aho and Teravainen. He got 23 ES points playing with Aho and/or Teravainen, and 4 when he didn't. Linemates matter.

[TheSquatch]

Linemates matter, which is why the coach is keeping his better players away from Monahan right now?

Nobody thinks Monahan should be scoring nightly with bottom-depth wingers.

Nobody thinks it's okay that Monahan has 1 goal this season.

Both things can be right.

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

Joe Thornton proped up Cheecho

In a way Johnny did Monahan.

Remember his first season though before Johnny arrived? Team was fairly putrid. He was 19 years old and scored 22 goals which was 2nd on the team behind Cammalleri.

And now....he didn't play a shift in OT vs Penguins. That tells us right there that he isn't 100%.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

No, you can’t distill my case down to ES vs PP time, and ignore line mates. That is silly, and I am sure you know it.

Ferland had his career year, getting 21/20 when playing with Gaudreau who was top 10 in both overall and ES scoring (60 pts)

Monahan is playing now with Trevor Lewis who had a career high 26 points when he was in his prime, 5 years ago.

Think about that. Trevor Lewis got 26 points playing with guys like Nick Shore, Kyle Clifford and Andy Andreoff. Tell me again how awesome Ferland is for getting 41 points, playing with Johnny and Monny.

And tell me you are surprised that Monahan is not getting ES points

Isn’t he flanked by Dube and Pitllick?

If Johnny, Mangi, Lindholm, even Tkachuk had these same linemates, I suspect we’d still be looking at dangerous players driving play.

Sure, Monahan would see some improved production sliding up the lineup receiving passes from Johnny. But watching Johnny this year, I’m struck by how much he has been held back for quite some time, I think in large part due to Monahan. Remember when Johnny’s chances only came off the rush? The sustained zone time they’ve had this year has been a treat to watch, and IMO is not a thing with Monahan playing on that unit.

Monahan likely has better 5 v 5 production with better line mates. But the team is more dangerous without him in the top 6. And it goes back further than his injury.

[Gaskal]

I was fiddling around in Photoshop with making player cards for this season - our boy is a black hole of ACTUAL offense, but still keeping his head above water defensively and possession metrics look okay.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

No, you can’t distill my case down to ES vs PP time, and ignore line mates. That is silly, and I am sure you know it.

I am not the one ignoring linemates. I am the one e plaining to you that context matters, and even at his absolute peak, the context behind Monahan's results was deeply rooted in how the Flames utilized him, despite him not having necessarily deserved such usage when contrasted with his peers at the centre position in terms of overall skillset.

And yes, guys who are on PP1 will get a lot of points that inflate their stats. That's not to say PP points are less important, but a guy not on PP1 cannot be compared to a guy on PP1 with a basic point totals analysis.

Saying "Ferland only produced 20g/40p despite first line usage" is disingenuous at best - first line implies all situations - playing with Gaudreau at 5v5 does not mean he was utilized as a first liner. PP time is a major factor in defining "first line usage".

So compare apples to apples.

Which, for all intents and purposes, is limited to 5v5.

Ferland had his career year, getting 21/20 when playing with Gaudreau who was top 10 in both overall and ES scoring (60 pts)

Actually Gaudreau had 51 points 5v5, Monahan had 39, and Ferland had 35 that year(also in the lowest total icetime of the three). Monahan also spent more icetime with Gaudreau ( 924:49) than Ferland spent eith Gaudreau (770:34).

Monahan is playing now with Trevor Lewis who had a career high 26 points when he was in his prime, 5 years ago.

Think about that. Trevor Lewis got 26 points playing with guys like Nick Shore, Kyle Clifford and Andy Andreoff. Tell me again how awesome Ferland is for getting 41 points, playing with Johnny and Monny.

And tell me you are surprised that Monahan is not getting ES points

I wasn't comparing 2017-18 Ferland to 2021-22 Monahan. I was comparing 2017-18 Ferland to 2017-18 Monahan, which was your own lazily analyzed comparision (i.e. "Ferland was only a 40pt player where Monahan was PPG even though they both played with Gaudreau). You've changed the goalposts suddenly.

As far as 2021-22 Monahan goes though, blaming Trevor Lewis for Monahan's lack of impact is missing the forest for the trees. Monahan's job isn't to produce like a 1st liner 5v5. It's to produce like a 3rd/4th liner 5v5 and drive play when there's nothing there. Something guys like Versteeg, Bennett, Jankowski, Ryan, Hathaway, Ferland, Lucic, Lewis, Chiasson, Richardson, Stajan, Dube, Jagr, Colborne etc etc have all managed to do in the bottom six with unideal linemates. And beyond production, even guys like Reider and Nordstrom and Pitlick have shown an ability to impact the game somehow.

Monahan is giving us nothing 5v5. And he's spent enough time with Dube and/or Mangiapane that it's also disingenous to be blaming Trevor Lewis.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

I was fiddling around in Photoshop with making player cards for this season - our boy is a black hole of ACTUAL offense, but still keeping his head above water defensively and possession metrics look okay.

Now do CF% Rel...

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

Isn’t he flanked by Dube and Pitllick?

If Johnny, Mangi, Lindholm, even Tkachuk had these same linemates, I suspect we’d still be looking at dangerous players driving play.

Sure, Monahan would see some improved production sliding up the lineup receiving passes from Johnny. But watching Johnny this year, I’m struck by how much he has been held back for quite some time, I think in large part due to Monahan. Remember when Johnny’s chances only came off the rush? The sustained zone time they’ve had this year has been a treat to watch, and IMO is not a thing with Monahan playing on that unit.

Monahan likely has better 5 v 5 production with better line mates. But the team is more dangerous without him in the top 6. And it goes back further than his injury.

Frankly, Dube is struggling more than Monahan and Pitlick, while useful defensively, is not a good offensive player at all.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

I was fiddling around in Photoshop with making player cards for this season - our boy is a black hole of ACTUAL offense, but still keeping his head above water defensively and possession metrics look okay.

Loving these player cards. As someone who was never really into analytics, these seem to consistently align with the eye test in my opinion.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

Remember his first season though before Johnny arrived? Team was fairly putrid. He was 19 years old and scored 22 goals which was 2nd on the team behind Cammalleri.

And now....he didn't play a shift in OT vs Penguins. That tells us right there that he isn't 100%.

Yes, something is wrong with him

And yes, I remember he did good without Johnny on his rookie year

But then Johnny came along, he stopped developing and ride Johnny’s coattail instead. That worked when he had the good shot. The shot is gone so now his learning to play again and it’s not looking good

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

I was fiddling around in Photoshop with making player cards for this season - our boy is a black hole of ACTUAL offense, but still keeping his head above water defensively and possession metrics look okay.

So he looks ok doing Lewis and Richardson type of work?

[Bingo]

I guess I can see where the cheeky negativity went with a team doing so well on the ice!

I certainly don't have an issue with calling it what it is ... the guy isn't producing, and appears to have trouble creating anything.

But why any one would argue so vehemently against the chance the guy could improve is just beyond me.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

Remember his first season though before Johnny arrived? Team was fairly putrid. He was 19 years old and scored 22 goals which was 2nd on the team behind Cammalleri.

And now....he didn't play a shift in OT vs Penguins. That tells us right there that he isn't 100%.

I think it tells us Sutter doesn’t trust Monahan. His last OT shift was not good and Darryl can be notoriously unforgiving.

Also, Monahan’s rookie season was ages ago. The game has completely changed since 2013-2014. Every year, the game gets faster and faster which leaves players like Monahan (who struggles in that department) behind. He was never great with the puck on his stick to begin with, which is why he deferred to Johnny Gaudreau so much. But with checking and back checking as ferocious as it is now, Monahan is having a hard time keeping up with today’s pace.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I think it tells us Sutter doesn’t trust Monahan. His last OT shift was not good and Darryl can be notoriously unforgiving.

Also, Monahan’s rookie season was ages ago. The game has completely changed since 2013-2014. Every year, the game gets faster and faster which leaves players like Monahan (who struggles in that department) behind. He was never great with the puck on his stick to begin with, which is why he deferred to Johnny Gaudreau so much. But with checking and back checking as ferocious as it is now, Monahan is having a hard time keeping up with today’s pace.

Sutter doesn’t punish for a bad shift. He punishes for general bad play, or more accurately, not doing what you’re coached to do (this is why Kylington took a while and why Val isn’t there yet).

In OT, Sutter used his fastest players, plus Tkachuk got 30 seconds. Arguably Monahan isn’t up the OT pace as you say and may never will be. His game has never been built on speed and OT has evolved a bit that way. There used to be more open cycling and he was decent at that. Now there’s way more odd man rushes.

[Enoch Root]

Sutter punished Monahan's OT shift by giving him the first slot on the shootout list.

Just brutal treatment.

[Strange Brew]

How many times has Sutter said he wants the team playing fast and in his last sound byte he said that if you see guys ice time down, that is the reason. He said some need to be reminded.

I took that to mean Monahan and Tkachuk personally.

[dustygoon]

Geez. I don’t think he is punishing Monahan for anything. I’m thinking same as the above poster…..doesn’t have the wheels for OT. He used to at least get a shift. He looks slow and maybe a full summer of training could help him. Not sure where the punishment angle comes from. He has a role and he seems to be filling it. It’s just a more limited role than before.

[The Cobra]

Monny doesn’t play in OT because he currently doesn’t have any of the skills required of a player to be successful in OT.


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[djsFlames]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Monny doesn’t play in OT because he currently doesn’t have any of the skills required of a player to be successful in OT.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Meanwhile leads franchise for most OT goals in team history.


But you're lucky you included the word "currently", otherwise this would be an embarrassing statement.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Sutter doesn’t punish for a bad shift. He punishes for general bad play, or more accurately, not doing what you’re coached to do (this is why Kylington took a while and why Val isn’t there yet).

In OT, Sutter used his fastest players, plus Tkachuk got 30 seconds. Arguably Monahan isn’t up the OT pace as you say and may never will be. His game has never been built on speed and OT has evolved a bit that way. There used to be more open cycling and he was decent at that. Now there’s way more odd man rushes.

I don't know if Sutter punishes players or not, we've certainly heard him say that. But to me, actions speak louder than words and after that tough Ducks game where Monahan made a bad decision on the game tying goal and then proceeded to combine in effort, the goal against in OT, the next game, he found himself demoted to 4th line with Lewis and Lucic.

I can't say for sure whether it's connected or not or if it's just coincidence, but I don't think we've seen Monahan in OT since that game/shift, which is kind of surprising since if I'm not mistaken, he's the all time Flames leader in OT goals.