Ongoing Residential Schools Tragedy Discussion

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Wormius

You can absolutely judge whether people deserve a statue or naming honour using current norms. Naming stuff after people is just dumb though. I think we should just end that practice starting now.

You just wait. Stephen Harper Airport in Calgary is coming.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Oh, do you think we're getting moral gratification out of this? Hardly. I feel ashamed for not understanding what indigenous people faced in these schools and for my prejudices while growing up. I want to understand what happened and I'm motivated to do what it takes to begin to atone.

For you to think we're getting our jollies off this is beyond weird.

You’re obviously a decent guy and it is good that this tragedy has motivated you to start thinking about this in a way that will lead to you start making amends.

However, I really think a lot of this is giving a free pass to people who can actually make a difference and who have coasted on these feelings for a long time.

Like our Prime Minister and all who came before him.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

There’s no cheaper source of moral gratification than broadcasting how we’re more enlightened than people were in the past. What does it actually accomplish?

What? We're horrible now and were worse back then. Both need to be acknowledged. We're barely starting to acknowledge before, let alone what's happening today.

In a perfect world we'd focus on both effective immediately, but I hope you can appreciate that a lot of people in this country don't appear to be genuine in their desires to stop being so hard on our past. It's more about inconvenience, annoyance and not wanting to look at our history in a different light than a desire to approach what's still happening today.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by peter12

You’re obviously a decent guy and it is good that this tragedy has motivated you to start thinking about this in a way that will lead to you start making amends.

However, I really think a lot of this is giving a free pass to people who can actually make a difference and who have coasted on these feelings for a long time.

Like our Prime Minister and all who came before him.

This is also very true, yes. And maddening.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Just that we shouldn't erase all history. Canadians need to know what happened back then. Sure remove the name from things, just don't erase it out of all history books. Maybe naming things after people is a bad idea to begin with.

If you've ever been to China, no streets are named after people. They're named like Construction, Harmony, Friendly, Help. or other cities, like we have Edmonton Trail.

Is anyone actually suggesting removing people from history? We’re talking about statues and honourary naming of things. I agree that we should stop naming things after people. Let’s name them after achievements. No one should argue against commemorating women getting to vote as a result of the famous five, it was a landmark event. Glorifying the famous five themselves is where we get into conflicting perspectives.

[peter12]

This idea of who owns the land is a bit redundant in my eyes. The history is too complex. All we can agree upon is that Indigenous people were here first but even that isn’t too meaningful of an observation.

Human society is in constant flux. The arrival of Europeans to the continent was perhaps inevitable, but we have to remember that colonialization took hundreds of years. There was plenty of violence - as there had always been. There was also disease, without which conquest of the Americas would not have been possible.

What really concerns me, from a Canadian perspective, is the concerted government effort to contain and assimilate Indigenous peoples - a process that is only about 180 years old and is still ongoing.

If you miss that last part, you’ve completely missed the point.

[jayswin]

And on that note, as racist as our population is as a whole towards Indigenous Canadians, I do find many who are appalled, and the conversations usually go the same - What can we actually do as an individual to help change this country?

That's a genuine question, and maybe a better direction for the thread than annoyance at easy ****ing name changes. I know I'd be happy to put time and/or money in the right places, so that I'm (and others) aren't just getting upset and not going any further.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by stone hands

renaming monuments and streets isn't erasing history - we arent striking their names from the record books and pretending they never existed. if anything, removing these peoples names and telling the real story of who they are and what they did - not just the good stuff in they wrote down in the history books - is the exact opposite of erasing history. to see it any other way is baffling

There is an argument that removing names is simply hiding the past, hiding things that are unpleasant. Look at us, we're inclusive now. But perhaps the country should keep things as is and move forward with the truth as is, warts and all. All countries were built on violence, revolution and mistakes. The fight now is to address and correct these behaviors.

[habernac]

It isn't hiding the past. Hitler doesn't have any schools named after him in Germany. I think we remember who he is and what he has done.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

There is an argument that removing names is simply hiding the past, hiding things that are unpleasant. Look at us, we're inclusive now. But perhaps the country should keep things as is and move forward with the truth as is, warts and all. All countries were built on violence, revolution and mistakes. The fight now is to address and correct these behaviors.

part of correcting the behaviors is, IMO, removing the perceived celebration of those individuals through building names and street names.


There ain't no Hitler highway in German, you can be sure everyone knows who the #### he is. Yes, I know I Godwined this.

[peter12]

Think of it like this, the Canadian government is by default set to oppose Indigenous interests and there are too many Canadians who either want to blame other entities, make small gestures at the lowest jurisdictional level, or who just also actively oppose Indigenous interests.

There is no political pressure and there should be for any kind of change to meaningfully occur.

That said, there is progress. BC’s DRIPA is a good start and its influence on the federal C-15 will be interesting to see.

[BMStrikesAgain]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

There is an argument that removing names is simply hiding the past, hiding things that are unpleasant. .

so make the argument instead of just saying there's an argument.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

There is an argument that removing names is simply hiding the past, hiding things that are unpleasant. Look at us, we're inclusive now. But perhaps the country should keep things as is and move forward with the truth as is, warts and all. All countries were built on violence, revolution and mistakes. The fight now is to address and correct these behaviors.

How many people here honestly knew who Langevin was and did a school or bridge help you with that knowledge? Did entering the doors or crossing the bridge make you reflect and celebrate his role in Confederation?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by edslunch

How many people here honestly knew who Langevin was and did a school or bridge help you with that knowledge? Did entering the doors or crossing the bridge make you reflect and celebrate his role in Confederation?

Both for me. I wondered why the bridge was named after Langevin so I looked it up once for about 10 seconds. All good things obviously. And now that news has come out in recent years, I understand why it's happening, all the bad stuff. But I'm living in the moment.



I guess the big question is. In 20 years, does Langevin get taught in schools more truthfully than it is now? Or does it just get ignored.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

There’s no cheaper source of moral gratification than broadcasting how we’re more enlightened than people were in the past. What does it actually accomplish?

This is such a stupid "I'm 14, and I think this is deep" post.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by habernac

It isn't hiding the past. Hitler doesn't have any schools named after him in Germany. I think we remember who he is and what he has done.

Never head of him.

[firebug]

For as 'easy' a change renaming and removing is, it sure generates a whole lot of bellyaching.

Imagine what it'll sound like when we get to the really painful (and necessary) steps ahead of us.

I don't imagine many of us who feel the R&R important and necessary are under any illusion that it is sufficient.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by BMStrikesAgain

so make the argument instead of just saying there's an argument.

She can't make the argument because it's a stupid and nonsensical argument. As other posters have pointed out, post-war Germany removed literally everything from their country that glorified the Third Reich, and yet literally everybody in present-day Germany is acutely aware of the atrocities committed by the Nazis. Germany didn't "erase" Hitler from history; they did exactly the opposite, in fact. It's precisely because Germany successfully reckoned with their past -- something Canada largely hasn't done -- that their citizens made amends with those who were so horribly wronged, educated their population such that the conditions that led to the rise of fascism will not occur again, and are now seen as a global leader in freedom and democracy.

[Wastedyouth]

CliffFletcher has the weirdest viewpoints on this topic.

[_Q_]

Remove the names of every white dude that died before 1980 from all of our buildings, schools or any other public spaces.

More likely than not, they're probably being glorified today for some pretty terrible stuff.