Renewed passenger rail service between Banff and Calgary?

[Flames0910]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

If Alberta gov approves funding this, I will have no idea how based on the below:

1. They barely thought the Green Line was worth it, and that's directly effecting voters and commuters. Don't see how a tourism focused line would be more viable for the government unless it saved them from adding two lanes to Hwy 1 in the near future (which I don't think is planned).

2. It's primarily for a federal park. No way Kenney gives money to help anything related to the feds. He would demand Banff be handed over to Alberta.

But then again, this government surprises me left right and center, so it'll be approved

The money is for private infrastructure and the Waterous family has ties to the UCP. They will definitely approve it. They'll probably even back the risk too!

Adam and Jan Waterous are husband and wife, and more importantly: UCP Donors. They're in the inner circle. Hell, both Kenney and Miranda Rosin have already pumped the tires on this project.
https://albertaviews.ca/an-unwanted-voice/
https://kimsiever.ca/2020/07/30/ceo-...ucp-donations/
https://calgaryherald.com/business/v...t-expectations


But even though I hate the UCP with the rage of a thousand BC wildfires, I find myself torn.

• I think a train to Banff is sorely needed, and the timing seems right. In a world of climate change, it's much better to get tourists to the busiest national park in the country off the roads and in by mass transit. I know the parks are busier than ever, but these people are coming whether we like it or not.
• Stopping downtown would be a real kick in the pants for the Calgary economy and for urbanism in this city. This is greatly needed right now with the hollowing out of downtown oil money.
• Negotiating use of an existing right of way and the Waterous family bringing in their existing train station / parking lot in Banff is all smart cost management.
• It's easy to see a P3 partnership with the infrastructure bank, the province, and maybe the City of Calgary throws in something for the downtown station. Ideally the First Nations along the route get involved as well (last time this story came up they had negotiated with CPR but not consulted with Indigenous leaders so I hope that has happened by now).

But dammit the Waterous connection stinks to high heaven of cronyism. This shouldn't be how business is done in our province.
Between redevelopment of the train station area in Banff, the previously rejected gondola proposal that I'm sure they'll resubmit, and their other political connections it sure seems like they've got a lot to gain from this project. Then again, the province also stands to gain, as does the economic corridor between Calgary and Banff. If this thing were to happen, there are a lot of people who stand to benefit.

[Northendzone]

i'd love for these dreamers to show me what a day trip to banff on the trian would look like. let's say I want to go hike to johnson canyon and the ink wells and i want to take the train. How exactly would that work? What time could i catch the train at? How would i be moved from Banff station to the trail head and back. Do i have wiggle room to take the 6pm train back to calgary instead of the 4.30 pm train or does it depend on something like seat availability?

most importantly, though, i want to see a realistic cost projection - not the usual one where it starts at $5billion and the bills roll in and it is $13b.

[Amethyst]

I would love to take a train to Banff for $20. Since the UCP is going to be corrupt anyway, they might as well put it towards something I'd enjoy.

[Northendzone]

i too like the idea of taking the train; however, then the actual mechanics come into play and i feel it will be a PITA, that would add about 3 extra hours to the whole trip of going to banff.

does anyone know if there are any similar models of this type of service anywhere in the world?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

i too like the idea of taking the train; however, then the actual mechanics come into play and i feel it will be a PITA, that would add about 3 extra hours to the whole trip of going to banff.

does anyone know if there are any similar models of this type of service anywhere in the world?

Getting around the parks is going to become more of a PITA anyway. Johnson Canyon will probably become more and more bus only. Same with Lake Louise. So you will have to board a bus in Banff and deal with that, no matter what.


I'm not sure what you mean by similar models elsewhere? A train that goes places? It's a passenger train, it isn't inventing something new.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

i too like the idea of taking the train; however, then the actual mechanics come into play and i feel it will be a PITA, that would add about 3 extra hours to the whole trip of going to banff.

does anyone know if there are any similar models of this type of service anywhere in the world?

Pretty much anywhere in Europe or Asia.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

i too like the idea of taking the train; however, then the actual mechanics come into play and i feel it will be a PITA, that would add about 3 extra hours to the whole trip of going to banff.

does anyone know if there are any similar models of this type of service anywhere in the world?

There's tons of examples of high speed rails all over the world. But I honestly have no clue about examples of high speed rails that have to traverse the same climate as the Calgary/Banff corridor.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

i'd love for these dreamers to show me what a day trip to banff on the trian would look like. let's say I want to go hike to johnson canyon and the ink wells and i want to take the train. How exactly would that work? What time could i catch the train at? How would i be moved from Banff station to the trail head and back. Do i have wiggle room to take the 6pm train back to calgary instead of the 4.30 pm train or does it depend on something like seat availability?

most importantly, though, i want to see a realistic cost projection - not the usual one where it starts at $5billion and the bills roll in and it is $13b.

I guess it depends. Do you want to wake up at 5am to take your vehicle out there just so you can get a parking space or would you rather the inconvenience of tacking on some time to duration of the journey there and back?

I think we’re going to get to the point where taking a personal vehicle is going to be more restrictive than taking a train. I don’t think they’re building new parking spots at Johnston Canyon anytime soon.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

i'd love for these dreamers to show me what a day trip to banff on the trian would look like. let's say I want to go hike to johnson canyon and the ink wells and i want to take the train. How exactly would that work? What time could i catch the train at? How would i be moved from Banff station to the trail head and back. Do i have wiggle room to take the 6pm train back to calgary instead of the 4.30 pm train or does it depend on something like seat availability?

most importantly, though, i want to see a realistic cost projection - not the usual one where it starts at $5billion and the bills roll in and it is $13b.

Simple answer: Park car at station in Calgary, sit on train for a 60-90 minutes, hop on shuttle bus to Johnston Canyon. And then reverse it on the way home. Once the infrastructure is in place, it wouldn't be some major ordeal.

Roam Transit has had a lot of funding over the past few years, and continues to expand. They go to Lake Louise, Canmore, Johnston Canyon in the summer, most of the main spots around town, etc. Shuttles to ski hills already operate.

Parking a car at a lot of the popular places is already a nightmare, and transit/shuttle busses are really the future in the national park. I envision that one day there will be a transit hub somewhere (probably near the train station area) where people hop off of the train, connect to busses to Lake Louise and other destinations, walk into town, etc. Public transit and private tour operators will have a major role in ensuring that people can still access things without everyone bringing their own vehicle, spending far too long finding parking (or not finding it at all), and taking up a parking spot for a few hours.

It is a strange thing to think about in our car-centric culture, but ultimately it will come down to this: is the national park there for actual people to enjoy, or is it for people to park their cars?

It isn't going to happen overnight, obviously, but there will come a day where driving a car and parking it in Banff, Lake Louise, etc. is even more of a hassle or not even permitted, and leaving your car at the train station in Calgary will feel like a breeze. If you're hitting some of the harder to get to places, maybe a car will still be necessary - it isn't like the train and shuttles will get you to every remote trail head.

I would argue that we are almost at the point already, especially in peak season, on weekends, holidays, etc. Banff already has a big parking lot in the industrial area with shuttle busses because people can't find parking in the town centre. Traffic jams circle the blocks sometimes because people are hunting for a spot. You'll never be able to reduce the number of people in Banff, but you can reduce the number of cars.

I'm no anti-car pinko either, but Banff can't sustain its own popularity if driving is the only viable way to get there. Do I know how much a train would cost, what there fare will be, and how frequently it will come, and is this even the right solution? Of course not. But Banff can't keep adding cars.

And I'm not saying that I would never drive to Banff either, but I believe in giving people options. A short hike on a slow day in an off-peak season? Maybe a drive would be nice. But hitting up the town on a summer weekend for some dinner and shopping? 100% I'd take that train. A train gives people options and takes some of the strain off of the town. Nobody is going to ban cars entirely in Banff anytime soon, although it will get a whole lot less convenient in some places, and a train actually makes drastic measures like that less likely because at least people would have options to not drive.

[GGG]

Buses seem like a very reasonable option instead. Very cheap too.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by GGG

Buses seem like a very reasonable option instead. Very cheap too.

There is actually a bus service already in the spring, summer, and fall, and it is super cheap ($20 round trip or something). And they've got decent frequency.

They depart from a couple of places, including Crowfoot station. I could technically "walk" to Banff because I live in Tuscany and can walk to the LRT, go one stop, hop on a bus to Banff for the day.

Of course I haven't yet, but I could. The pandemic has been a factor as well.

"Rail bias" is a real thing though. All other things being equal, people will almost always choose train over bus. And passenger trains are, let's face it, way sexier than a bus. Is that reason enough to spend billions on a train? Of course not, but there are also other factors to consider like the airport link, efficiency, highway traffic, funding sources, etc. It might be easier to get multiple levels of government on board with a train vs. busses galore, even if it costs more.

[Flames0910]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

i too like the idea of taking the train; however, then the actual mechanics come into play and i feel it will be a PITA, that would add about 3 extra hours to the whole trip of going to banff.

does anyone know if there are any similar models of this type of service anywhere in the world?

You are speaking from the local perspective where you already own or have access to a vehicle in Calgary. Of the 4M annual visitors to Banff how many are tourists compared to locals? (and is that number likely to go up in the future?)

Sure you can transfer over from the international terminal to the car rental hub at YYC and rent a car for $80/day (insurance? snow tires? ice scraper?), then find somewhere to park it at your hotel every night. Or you can spend $20 for a train ticket and walk/shuttle/uber.

Also don't forget about things like Chartered Tours where you fly in, shuttle out to Banff (currently) and then meet up with a tourism company like Pursuit who takes care of your itinerary for a week.

[Northendzone]

i was speaking from a local perspective.

like i said the idea of a train to canmore/banff/lake lousie is great. what are the plans once you get folks there. you will need to have good bus infrastructure to get them to other places and back to the train station.

i would love to take the train to LL to go skiing; however, it is hard to imagine a scenario where i could do that and be skiing before 10am and then what about the trip home?

[Northendzone]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stang

Simple answer: Park car at station in Calgary, sit on train for a 60-90 minutes, hop on shuttle bus to Johnston Canyon. And then reverse it on the way home. Once the infrastructure is in place, it wouldn't be some major ordeal.

so i live in the deep SE, and it take me 90m to drive to banff - so i could choose to leave early and get to say Johnson Canyon say 120 minutes and have flexibility to hike at my own speed to the ink pots and leave when i want.

or i could likely leave my house earlier than i would to drive, to get to the train station, wait for the train, then take a 90m train ride to Banff, then wait for a shuttle bus, hike, then get back in time to catch a shuttle back to Banff, then wait for the train, then 90m back to the station, then drive home.

do i buy my train tickets for the to and from based on a certain time? what if i hike slower and then miss the 4pm train, then can i just jump on the 5pm train? or will it depend on how many seats are sold in advance.

if i miss my pre-purchased train home time, do i have to overnight it in banff?b or will the trains run until late?

What about the bus times at the trail head? if i miss my bus there maybe i can call a cab, if i get cell service, if not, i guess i am walking.

to me these are factors i'd want to consider.

Now if i was going for lunch in banff and to wander around, then not as big of a deal

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stang

There is actually a bus service already in the spring, summer, and fall, and it is super cheap ($20 round trip or something). And they've got decent frequency.

They depart from a couple of places, including Crowfoot station. I could technically "walk" to Banff because I live in Tuscany and can walk to the LRT, go one stop, hop on a bus to Banff for the day.

Of course I haven't yet, but I could. The pandemic has been a factor as well.

"Rail bias" is a real thing though. All other things being equal, people will almost always choose train over bus. And passenger trains are, let's face it, way sexier than a bus. Is that reason enough to spend billions on a train? Of course not, but there are also other factors to consider like the airport link, efficiency, highway traffic, funding sources, etc. It might be easier to get multiple levels of government on board with a train vs. busses galore, even if it costs more.

Yep, and you can get bus tickets pretty much day of without problem. I keep meaning to try to do sawback trail without a car from Calgary.

[Wormius]

I’d guess that they could have stops at popular areas. If sharing CP tracks, that would put you pretty close to Johnston Canyon, if it were to extend beyond Banff and closer to LL.

If there were a train with, how much earlier would you want to leave? Literally the only reasons I have left early for a hike was because of the length of the hike or because I felt there would be no parking available if I left later. As a non-morning person, that would be a big plus.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

so i live in the deep SE, and it take me 90m to drive to banff - so i could choose to leave early and get to say Johnson Canyon say 120 minutes and have flexibility to hike at my own speed to the ink pots and leave when i want.

or i could likely leave my house earlier than i would to drive, to get to the train station, wait for the train, then take a 90m train ride to Banff, then wait for a shuttle bus, hike, then get back in time to catch a shuttle back to Banff, then wait for the train, then 90m back to the station, then drive home.

do i buy my train tickets for the to and from based on a certain time? what if i hike slower and then miss the 4pm train, then can i just jump on the 5pm train? or will it depend on how many seats are sold in advance.

if i miss my pre-purchased train home time, do i have to overnight it in banff?b or will the trains run until late?

What about the bus times at the trail head? if i miss my bus there maybe i can call a cab, if i get cell service, if not, i guess i am walking.

to me these are factors i'd want to consider.

Now if i was going for lunch in banff and to wander around, then not as big of a deal

You seem to be making up a whole host of issues here. Maybe it's not for you. But tourists are super happy not not have to worry about vehicles when they come out. To be able to get to their hotel, then hop a ski bus, ski for the day, and go home? They love that stuff. The existing bus infrastructure has made huge improvements in the past few years. Having a train would be a catalyst for a bunch more development.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by accord1999

For the connection to the airport, are they planning to run a train directly to the terminal? Because I don't see how they can do it within the $1.5B budget when the cost of connecting YYC to the Blue Line (with a new people mover train) is by itself already $758M.



https://pub-calgary.escribemeetings....umentId=145966

Interesting link. I find it hard to fathom why it would be that expensive. Presumably the expectation has been a blue-line spur line to the east, but Airport Trail to the west is new enough that a ROW was also accounted for.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Interesting link. I find it hard to fathom why it would be that expensive. Presumably the expectation has been a blue-line spur line to the east, but Airport Trail to the west is new enough that a ROW was also accounted for.

The plan is a shuttle train that runs from the non-existent green line, to the airport, and to the blue line as well. So straight across, with a T down to the airport. This is several council lifetimes away at this rate, but would be the cheapest way to do it.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

There's tons of examples of high speed rails all over the world. But I honestly have no clue about examples of high speed rails that have to traverse the same climate as the Calgary/Banff corridor.

Harbin-Dalian in China would probably be the closest example (actually significantly colder than Calgary in terms of average winter temperatures).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbin...-speed_railway

Pricetag of about $10 billion per 100km of track, with a lot of cost going to constructing above-ground viaducts to run the track on, to avoid frost-heaving.