Done with Consumer WiFi solutions...

[indes]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Can someone explain to me what the point of the gateway like the Express 7 is?

Similar to Meel, I'm moving into a new build and trying to figure out what I need.

So far I've identified:
- Switch to connect all the cat 6 outlets. (does the switch need some special capability to use PoE for a ceiling mount AP?)
- Ceiling mount AP connected to one of those cat 6 outlets on the 2nd floor (pretty open concept plan so I think the one AP might be enough)
- Standard AP in the basement
- Telus router in the basement that connects the modem and the switch.

Potentially I have another AP for the main floor, but I don't have a great place for it (should've asked the builder to do a second ceiling mount but didn't do it). The only place might be a drywall box behind the TV, but we're thinking of a pretty flush mounted samsung frame so it might just be completely pointless. The other spot is my office, but that's way at one end of the house without much else there.

I'm confused at some of these extra pieces and wondering if someone can shed some light.

The gateway runs your network (it becomes your "router").

You will need POE to run the APs so you could run an Express 7 or a dream router + a poe switch or get a UDM Pro SE which has built in poe ports but no wifi built in. 1 AP on your top floor + 1 in the basement very well could be enough, you can always add some extenders, jam an In-Wall in your drywall box behind the TV or put an AP facing upwards from your basement (I did this before I finished the basement and it worked fine).

Do you plan on running any cameras?

[Meelapo]

Originally Posted by indes

I can't speak to the express 7's specifically but the APs are pretty much plug and play. I didn't know too much about networking either but was able to set my UDM pro SE with a couple youtube videos. IMO the UDM pro wouldn't be worth it for the future proofing as if you did want to add cameras/doorbell/sensors you would still need an NVR and if you want to run POE APs you still need a powered switch.

All just my opinion and I don't think you can go wrong with the unifi stuff, don't be intimidated by the setup there's a ton of resources and videos out there. As for troubleshooting - the nice part is I haven't had to do a single thing since I set up my network ~3 years ago.

Thanks. I took a look at the UDM Pro SE and didn’t realize you still need to introduce something that provides wifi. So I feel like the Express 7 x 2 and the switch might be the best option for what we need for the next few years. And then I can upgrade to a more advanced option at a future point.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by indes

The gateway runs your network (it becomes your "router").

You will need POE to run the APs so you could run an Express 7 or a dream router + a poe switch or get a UDM Pro SE which has built in poe ports but no wifi built in. 1 AP on your top floor + 1 in the basement very well could be enough, you can always add some extenders, jam an In-Wall in your drywall box behind the TV or put an AP facing upwards from your basement (I did this before I finished the basement and it worked fine).

Do you plan on running any cameras?

No, not planning to run cameras other than doorbell.

So what you're saying is something like:

Fiber cable -> Telus modem -> Telus Router -> Gateway -> PoE switch -> Access Points and other hardwired stuff

Or if I want to go with TP Link, something like https://www.lenovo.com/ca/en/p/acces...tches/78810994 might work as well (since it seems like it's a gateway and a switch?)

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Meelapo

Thanks. I took a look at the UDM Pro SE and didn’t realize you still need to introduce something that provides wifi. So I feel like the Express 7 x 2 and the switch might be the best option for what we need for the next few years. And then I can upgrade to a more advanced option at a future point.

If budget is a concern, I'd recommend getting coax pulled onto the main floor AND utility room. Buy just 1 Express 7 vs 2 and operate that way by putting it on the main floor.

Buy another Express 7 only if truly needed later on, which should help the budget. These things are more powerful than you may realize. At my parents house, it was a huge leap from a single Amplifi HD on the main floor vs 3 TP link mesh nodes. My dad actually got mad and said the single router was noticeably better and a second node was completely unnecessary.

Or in a few months to a year when budget is better, you can probably recover more than you expect from potentially selling the Express 7, and put that towards the set up you want, UDM or otherwise. Amplifi HD routers still sell for $100-200 each and they're discontinued. I purchased them for $180-250 each brand new. Used express routers are still going for $150-200 USD. Not bad for a router you're aiming to buy $285 CAD brand new.


Assuming no worse than my AmpliFi set up, the complexity of debugging an Express 7 mesh set up vs a UniFi set up is only incrementally more, but relatively straight forward. Basically both are fruit baskets and will be approached similarly for someone wanting to consume, but one is all apples (mesh), and the other has apples plus a variety of fruit. You'll have less concerns for allergies for all apples, but sometimes complaints about wanting some other type of fruit too.

IMO, they would be near identical. The Express 7 set up is of a more limited ecosystem of hardware, so there's less decision tree work to establish what is the cause of an issue, because there's a lower variety of hardware and settings variations that can cause a problem. IIRC, initial app set up etc. is actually slower than the UniFi set up, but it's more mindless clicking. The initial UniFi set up is faster, but then you need to explain what you're adding to the network etc. Once you got it going, it's easy to set and forget.

The extra time debugging is really minor differences in research and confirming things like settings, hardware and Wifi 6/7 device "bugs". The Wifi 6/7 thing has mostly gone away with more recent updates to devices in general. If you have an issue, someone else likely did and it's easy to find those posts and copy what they did to resolve it. Anything else would probably be identical time regardless of Express 7/UDM Pro (ie: device issue, networking connectivity issues, strategic positioning of units etc.).

Issues I usually ran into for a mesh network would be devices basically dropping connection for longer than expected when the hand off between the mesh nodes got confused (devices usually bounce from one node to another based on the best reception, sometimes it gets stuck in hand off for like 10-30 seconds if I'm perfectly in between the hand off criteria). The settings available are more limited for mesh networks to address this, so sometimes I just had to wait it out. Identical hardware also meant confusion at times, because I would know a node is having issues/interference, but I didn't know which of the two identical pieces of hardware was experiencing it without digging into details.

Also, if I needed to do anything with the primary node (updates or otherwise), the whole network goes down until that node is back to operational.

For the UDM pro, an update to the UDM Pro of course makes the network go down until it's done. However, for multiple AP, because it's not really a primary vs secondary node situation, I can do updates on the AP one at a time and have no/limited down time due to a primary/secondary node issue. I can bind devices to specific AP (ie: devices that don't move) to avoid the hand off issue. I can also set one AP to broadcast in 2.4 more powerfully and the other at 5.0 to maximize speeds in specific circumstances/locations in my home.

Ubiquiti also has an excellent and logical interface. The extra features shouldn't be shown in a way that causes confusion regardless of whether you're doing AP or mesh. Honestly speaking, I got more confused other brands app and web interfaces where the features were far less than the Amplifi or Unifi system with way more features and settings. TP link was terrible for this where there'd be a settings tab with no ability to do anything. No such thing for Ubiquiti IIRC, and many settings explain what happens and pros/cons of doing so and sometimes what prep you should do before doing that setting.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Regorium

No, not planning to run cameras other than doorbell.

So what you're saying is something like:

Fiber cable -> Telus modem -> Telus Router -> Gateway -> PoE switch -> Access Points and other hardwired stuff

Or if I want to go with TP Link, something like https://www.lenovo.com/ca/en/p/acces...tches/78810994 might work as well (since it seems like it's a gateway and a switch?)

Ignore switches and POE for a sec. Those are just ways to increase device connectivity and ways to get power to devices. Router and gateway are also like squares and rectangles. Vast majority the same, but also completely different.

The point is like the needs of running an ever bigger business. The business of connectivity.

For some, the cable modem/router/wireless broadcasting combo is good enough. Like only ever needing a single employee capable of every role to run a small corner store.

Mesh is like multiple employees in a bigger store that can simultaneously and interchangeably do the cash register/stocking for the router/wireless broadcasting reasonably, whereas the modem focuses on wired and wireless traffic.

In an even bigger or complex business, gateway is more like non-interchangeable employees that do their role exceptionally well, but perhaps none of the other roles well. Like a receptionist, the office expert(s), and a warehouse manager. The modem focuses on being the best modem. A more powerful/dedicated gateway focuses on being the best wired traffic controller (router+). An AP focuses on being the best at wireless broadcasting.

The funny irony is that the complicated set ups are trying to make it so that each key point in the system is technically less complicated and one device isn't doing as many things. This allows for broadcasting/reaching further, less device overloaded/over heating/running at max, and introducing items with unique features that not all people require. A lot of people also don't realize the level of connectivity they're using and still consider themselves someone with "basic needs" even when they're actually advanced.

Based on what you're describing, it seems like a basic modem/router might be all you need, with a possibility to considering mesh if your broadcast area is too big for a strategically placed modem/router. You don't do a lot of IOT stuff, so a gateway likely makes no sense for you.

[Meelapo]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

If budget is a concern, I'd recommend getting coax pulled onto the main floor AND utility room. Buy just 1 Express 7 vs 2 and operate that way by putting it on the main floor…..

Okay. First thank you for another detailed post!

It’s a brand new build so we have Cat6 drops on the main floor and second floor and basement (finished) as well as in the utility room (unfinished). But the drops are on the wall at the electrical outlet level.

But maybe I can do the following….

- UDM Pro SE in the basement
- Express 7 as an AP on the main floor

Should that provide wireless throughout the house? Our basement is my WFH office which will need a decent wifi connection. We’ll have a TV + console but I can power those with a hardwire + cheap switch if wireless is not great. The main and second floor will have a TV and will need connectivity for mobile devices really. I’ll have a gaming PC on the main floor but I can connect it to the LAN port on the Express 7 which will be located in the same room. I imagine the WAN port could connect to the UDM Pro SE.

If wireless is an issue I can put a ceiling U7 Pro AP in the utility room as it’s unfinished so a ceiling mount would be manageable with a wire kind of hanging. That should be good for the basement + second floor and then I can move the express 7 to the third floor.

I feel like the UDM Pro SE might be overkill for me and maybe the UDM Pro would be a better fit. I’m planning on going with ReoLink cameras x 2 (wide angle cameras), doorbell and getting the ReoLink NVR which has a built in PoE switch. I’m thinking if I go with a U7 Pro I can just get the PoE adapter which would just plug into the UDM Pro. But the WAN is only 1 Gb vs 2.5 Gb. Almost a $200 difference.

Would this be a better middle ground than just the Express 7?

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Meelapo

Okay. First thank you for another detailed post!

It’s a brand new build so we have Cat6 drops on the main floor and second floor and basement (finished) as well as in the utility room (unfinished). But the drops are on the wall at the electrical outlet level.

But maybe I can do the following….

- UDM Pro SE in the basement
- Express 7 as an AP on the main floor

Should that provide wireless throughout the house? Our basement is my WFH office which will need a decent wifi connection. We’ll have a TV + console but I can power those with a hardwire + cheap switch if wireless is not great. The main and second floor will have a TV and will need connectivity for mobile devices really. I’ll have a gaming PC on the main floor but I can connect it to the LAN port on the Express 7 which will be located in the same room. I imagine the WAN port could connect to the UDM Pro SE.

If wireless is an issue I can put a ceiling U7 Pro AP in the utility room as it’s unfinished so a ceiling mount would be manageable with a wire kind of hanging. That should be good for the basement + second floor and then I can move the express 7 to the third floor.

I feel like the UDM Pro SE might be overkill for me and maybe the UDM Pro would be a better fit. I’m planning on going with ReoLink cameras x 2 (wide angle cameras), doorbell and getting the ReoLink NVR which has a built in PoE switch. I’m thinking if I go with a U7 Pro I can just get the PoE adapter which would just plug into the UDM Pro. But the WAN is only 1 Gb vs 2.5 Gb. Almost a $200 difference.

Would this be a better middle ground than just the Express 7?

Ubiquiti says 1500 sq ft, but a single strategically centrally placed AP or node can potentially do a reasonably good job in covering an entire 2200 sq ft home with slow zones and no dead zones in important areas. A single Amplifi HD was almost good enough for a 1400 sq ft townhouse broadcasting from the basement (just barely not good enough for me). Needing more than 2 nodes or AP is unlikely unless you have like a 4000+ sq ft house and first world problems of reasons of wanting to get the speed you paid for everywhere in your home, no matter the situation. A $139 U6+ on wifi 6 isn't going to be woefully bad vs a $239 U7 pro vs a $285 Express 7, but sometimes that incremental increase in performance is noticeable. The nice part is that an upgrade from wifi 6 to wifi 7 is "just" $239 and keeping the U6+ means you're backwards compatible in case some device is being weird about wifi 7 (which no all devices can take advantage of).

Keep in mind I believe you said you're going from TP link to a Ubiquiti product. There may not be as big of a need for as many nodes. That's what I noticed when I changed from TP link mesh stuff.

I'm not understanding the attempt to combine the Pro SE and Express 7 from a budget POV. That's $1000 in equipment. Express 7 is more expensive than an AP and is unnecessary if you have a gateway like the UDM Pro regular or SE. The moment you get a UDM, you go AP. I think some of the confusion is how you're using this based on what you were going to buy and the switch lite 8 is throwing off the numbers because it's a $139 switch. That's why the SE was recommended because it's $160 more than the base Pro with the nicer integrated form factor and you theoretically don't need POE switches if you get the SE vs base/mesh.

POE injectors are like $15 for POE, $20 for POE+ and $30 for POE++. For $100 you can buy something like a 8 port gigabit with 8x POE+) Individual injectors seem kinda silly unless specific situations. The one linked below should be enough, unless you need more than one area for POE?

https://www.amazon.ca/NETGEAR-Gigabi...4&sr=8-12&th=1


Without knowing more... IMO:

Original plan: 2x Express 7 with Switch lite 8 = $719


"Slimmed down approach/limited future proofing" $285 + $100-200 = $385-485: 1x Express 7 in central location on main floor + POE switch(es) in utility room feeding ethernet elsewhere.

Use the ethernet drop from main floor to utility room. The drop from the main floor goes to a POE switch in the utility room, which then goes from there to the board to offer hard wired ethernet to the rest of the house such as the original switch lite 8 idea or more ($100-200)? Cat6 does 1 Gbps up to 328 feet. Going from main floor to basement to top floor shouldn't exceed that limitation? Just make sure you don't accidentally buy a POE switch that isn't gigabit+ (I've made this mistake). I don't know the size/layout and materials in the house. In theory, you shouldn't have any dead zones, just perhaps some slow zones. The question is if the basement and upstairs are too slow for your situation. When I lived in a townhouse, an Amplifi HD in the basement with a 500 Mbps plan was giving 15-55 Mbps speed test results on the top floor, but with occasional lag and drops lasting up to 10-30 seconds. Putting the HD on the main floor would have worked fine, but didn't work for me because somehow I didn't have coax connection up there, basement only. I also assume the Express 7 is more powerful than a 10 year old AmpliFi HD increasing the odds you're fine with a slimmed down approach. Wifi speed failure merely means you revert back to the original $719 plan.


"Revised approach/full future proofing" ($585 + 100 + 129 + 129/239(?) = $814-1053): Basically, UDM Pro + POE switch in utility room feeding ethernet and power where it needs to be. Inexpensive U6+ AP in a strategic location(s) on main floor to stay lower on budget. Add an AP later on when the budget affords (U6+ or U7 for $129-239) if the strategically placed U6+ 1500 sq ft rating is inadequate. Keep in mind you can reposition your single AP between the day and night for work vs personal with relative ease unlike the Express 7 which would be more cumbersome because node 1 has to be tethered to the modem. This means because the UDM doesn't have to move, you could in theory move the AP from East/West or North/South on the main floor during the day/night with ease to maximize where the wifi is being used in the house. If all went well, you'd potentially only be buying a second AP for $129-239 at a later time for convenience purposes a want of wifi 7, not true need. This path might cost an extra bucks for cables and a few more steps on the step counter though.