Safe Injection Sites approved for edm, Cgy announcement tba

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

I agree with this 100%. Forceful treatment and forceful rehabilitation are the only way to combat the problem effectively.

This issue with this is that opioid addiction is a symptom of social and personal ills. If the social and personal ills are not addressed then forcing someone to go through withdrawl would only result in that person seeking drugs once released. We know this because forceful treatment is not a novel approach and has been used and failed to varying degrees for decades. In order to solve the opioid crisis upstream treatment needs to occur, and for that to happen spaces for outreach and treatment need to be established.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by you&me

That doesn't really seem fair because I don't think there's any subjectivity to the effects of the SIS; the effect is objectively bad.

There may be varying degrees of negativity, but I think it would be pretty hard to argue the Beltline is better off overall with the SIS, rather than if it didn't exist at all.

No, the effect is anywhere from irrelevant to bad, and a lot of the picture being painted is based on subjective anecdotes. As Table 5 said, how a young streetsmart male views an interaction with a homeless drug addict might vary wildly from how a retired old lady would view the exact same interaction.

The “varying degrees of negativity” is exactly what we’re talking about. They vary from “I’ve been stabbed with a needle” to “someone asked me for a smoke.” Nobody is going to put resources into protecting you from being asked for a smoke, which is why we can’t just make a decision on how to deal with the problem based on anecdotes and isolated data. For every negative worth doing something about, there’s multiple that are not worth even worrying about.

You can argue all you want that the SIS has had a negative effect on the Beltline, and there’s probably a lot to support that, but it’s not a relevant conclusion without measuring how negative that effect has been, and how it relates to the surrounding areas. Removing the SIS doesn’t just make homeless drug addicts vanish. At best, it spreads them out, at worst, it makes more dangerous situations in different areas.

In my experience, the changes that have happened are irrelevant. If the effects have been negative, they’ve been so minor I don’t even give them a second thought. Now, how many people want to take my experience as gospel and make decisions based off of it? Out of the people who have had their cars broken into or been hurt? Likely zero understandably. But do I want the city to make decisions based on the few absolutely terrible experiences people have had? No, I don’t. So that’s why they look at things from a broader perspective.

The SIS is just concentrating the effects of homeless drug addiction on one area. It didn’t create them.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

It doesn't matter how often it happens. If it's more than zero, it's too many.

That doesn’t tell us about the appropriate response, because how we respond is all that matters and you can’t appropriately do that without measuring the full scale of the problem.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by peter12

What does this even mean?

Ozy_Flame's wording seems to be trying to establish a baseline acceptable level of needle stabbings perpetrated by unstable people handed free needles. There is no acceptable level other than zero.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Ozy_Flame's wording seems to be trying to establish a baseline acceptable level of needle stabbings perpetrated by unstable people handed free needles. There is no acceptable level other than zero.

There is risk to basically everything. The baseline acceptable level of negligent driving causing death is also zero, but you don't see us shutting down all roads.

[calumniate]

Between the SIS and these scooters racing around I'm pretty much doomed

[peter12]

Originally Posted by calumniate

Between the SIS and these scooters racing around I'm pretty much doomed

You're safe as milk, baby.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by peter12

There is risk to basically everything. The baseline acceptable level of negligent driving causing death is also zero, but you don't see us shutting down all roads.

We don't hand unstable and/or intoxicated people free cars and encourage negligent driving. But you keep on attacking those straw men.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

We don't hand unstable and/or intoxicated people free cars and encourage negligent driving. But you keep on attacking those straw men.

I'm sorry, I thought that's what you were doing.

And we do insure high-risk drivers at the public expense - something far worse than handing out free needles or providing a safe space to inject.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Ozy_Flame's wording seems to be trying to establish a baseline acceptable level of needle stabbings perpetrated by unstable people handed free needles. There is no acceptable level other than zero.

"No acceptable level other than zero" as long as its not happening to a mild-mannered resident or white collar worker coming home from work. You know, the "non-clients" at the safe injection site.

Would you have this same level of care if it was one Schumir client stabbing another? Were you out making a point like that before the Schumir even turned in to a drop-in centre?

Even if you took the SIS away, there would still be muggings, assaults, drug use and crime. It's Central Memorial Park - not exactly the bastion of safety when it gets dark, as long as I can remember.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by peter12

We kind of do this in Vancouver where the city/province contracts out some needle collection stuff to community-based organizations.

Kind of? There is a deposit program as you suggested or there isn't? I don't understand.

Vancouver has to pay organizations to pick them up then?

[Fuzz]

All I ask is we move this one to Inglewood, so we can call it ISIS.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

"No acceptable level other than zero" as long as its not happening to a mild-mannered resident or white collar worker coming home from work. You know, the "non-clients" at the safe injection site.

Now you are just making things up, or projecting.

Would you have this same level of care if it was one Schumir client stabbing another?

Absolutely. I said zero is the only acceptable level.

Even if you took the SIS away, there would still be muggings, assaults, drug use and crime. It's Central Memorial Park - not exactly the bastion of safety when it gets dark, as long as I can remember.

Nice rationalization. "Crime already happened there before, so increased crime is ok".

[peter12]

Originally Posted by chemgear

Kind of? There is a deposit program as you suggested or there isn't? I don't understand.

Vancouver has to pay organizations to pick them up then?

Street-entrenched organizations. I'm just saying maybe making the incentives more direct would help. I don't know.

Discarded needles in the downtown core is obviously not an issue that we should be lackadaisical about. As myself and many others have said, the opioid crisis is an extremely complex issue, and safe injection sites/needle distribution is just a tiny piece of the puzzle.

[peter12]

What is the word on foot patrols in the Beltline? In Vancouver, VPD has expanded their foot patrols through the DTES and into Chinatown and Gastown with a marked decrease in crime.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

stuff

I'm sure once the SIS is removed from the area it will go back to being the safe utopia it once was, and Beltliners can frolik free again in the Park's warm grasps without a care in the world.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

I was being sarcastic, but yeah I feel you.

Oh yeah, I definitely picked up on that, but just wanted to point out that if you take that approach far enough it actually makes everything less horrible for everyone, just maybe a bit more expensive to administer.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Your post is shifting the conversation. Again I ask, how often does "stabbing" occur?

You are referring to - and focusing on - the improbable situation of when this actually happens. But having people "flip out" is not the same as having being stabbed. These are two very different actions.

So - how often are needle stabbings happening? Are all Schumir-vicinity residents getting stabbed with needles?

I was more responding to your insinuation that the guy did something to provoke whomever stabbed him when in fact a lot of these people don't need a reason or provocation to flip out. I'm not denying their humanity or wanting them eliminated but they're dangerous irrational people. How often does it occur? I'm guessing pretty rare but judging from how the hard stats show that all kinds of crime in the area are spiking I'd say it's a lot more likely than before the SIS existed.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I was more responding to your insinuation that the guy did something to provoke whomever stabbed him when in fact a lot of these people don't need a reason or provocation to flip out. I'm not denying their humanity or wanting them eliminated but they're dangerous irrational people. How often does it occur? I'm guessing pretty rare but judging from how the hard stats show that all kinds of crime in the area are spiking I'd say it's a lot more likely than before the SIS existed.

And probably less so in other areas, as it's likely just concentrating the problem. So what's the go-forward plan?

I think a continued concentration of police presence is a good idea. And I like peter's idea about getting a deposit back for used needles. Outside of that...

[peter12]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

And probably less so in other areas, as it's likely just concentrating the problem. So what's the go-forward plan?

I think a continued concentration of police presence is a good idea. And I like peter's idea about getting a deposit back for used needles. Outside of that...

Foot patrols by specially-trained and led police officers have made huge improvements on the DTES.