[PGT] Growing pains continue! Flames still get a point! - Page 18 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

moon · 10-08-2013, 04:59 PM

I don't think MacDonald is a good or bad waiver pick-up he is a typical waiver pick-up. When I said bad that describes his play which is what you would expect out of a waiver pick-up.

Not sure Jay Feasters opinion on whether he would get picked up or whether that would be a bad thing for the Flames should matter that much based on his horrible track record as a GM.

I guess signing a one year deal for back-up money is reflective of his play last year and his play for his whole career. He probably is the de facto #1 guy here but that is because we have the worst goaltending in the league not because he has done anything to earn that or deserve that. He would be the back-up or 3rd/4th stringer on any other team in the league.

His contract, play last year and de facto #1 status does nothing to show he was a great waiver pick up or that he is going to improve at the age of 33.

squiggs96 · 10-08-2013, 05:04 PM

Maybe Hartley is playing MacDonald Wednesday against Montreal, so that Ramo can play Friday night against New Jersey. It could be that he has a hunch or likes the match up better. Either way, it's one game, and I'm not going to get too upset about who the goalie is. I'm going to focus on how hard working the team has been, how nice it's been to watch a team that truly cares about the process and I'm looking forward to them improving. Between all of our goalies, it doesn't make much difference who was in net.

Remember after the first game when many were calling for TJ Galiardi to be benched for his terrible penalty? Well Hartley put him on the ice for the next game and he was the first star. I'm going to guess Hartley and the coaches know a lot more about this team than we do. He's already gotten four out of six points, from a team that almost everybody picked to come last. I'm ready to trust him to pick a goalie.

djsFlames · 10-08-2013, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yakbutter

It's obvious Mac is getting more starts at the moment so Ramo can adjust to the game. Let Ramo play a game here and there while learning NHL shooters tendencies in practice.

If it's halfway through the season and Ramo has had less than 5 starts I could see the frustration of not giving Ramo a chance. But seriously it's 4 games into the season...take a deep breath.

Umm.. EXCEPT for the glaring fact that Ramo has already spent 3 seasons with the Tampa Bay Lightning and 3 seasons with the Admirals in the AHL prior to this. 6 years of NA game experience. This isn't foreign to him.

It would make sense if this was Berra who stayed up and was being held out of action to learn the game, but Ramo isn't some stranger to the NA game in his first tour of duty here. Karri has played here before. Went to europe to work on his game, and now he's back to try and make his mark. I think he should be ready to go if asked.

With this considered, the decision to go back to MacD after a loss is definitely a head scratcher.

Cleveland Steam Whistle · 10-08-2013, 05:07 PM

Flames picking up a serviceable NHL caliber back up off of waivers = great waiver pick up.

How can it not? We got an asset we needed, and contiue to need and gave up no assets to get it, that's good GMing, regardless.

The parameters of how good overall that a waiver pick up can be are limited by the fact that it's a waiver pick up in the first place. You don't pick up the cornerstones of your franchise on waivers. The Flames managed to fill a needed roster spot with a guy that would fill that same roll on quiet a few teams in this league, meaning it was a good pick up.

Cleveland Steam Whistle · 10-08-2013, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Umm.. EXCEPT for the glaring fact that Ramo has already spent 3 seasons with the Tampa Bay Lightning and 3 seasons with the Admirals in the AHL prior to this. 6 years of NA game experience. This isn't foreign to him.

It would make sense if this was Berra who stayed up and was being held out of action to learn the game, but Ramo isn't some stranger to the NA game in his first tour of duty here. Karri has played here before. Went to europe to work on his game, and now he's back to try and make his mark. I think he should be ready to go if asked.

With this considered, the decision to go back to MacD after a loss is definitely a head scratcher.

How long ago was that, and how much time has Ramo played in a different league, on different ice at a different level since then? He's hardly in the NA game grove at this point.

moon · 10-08-2013, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Flames picking up a serviceable NHL caliber back up off of waivers = great waiver pick up.

How can it not? We got an asset we needed, and contiue to need and gave up no assets to get it, that's good GMing, regardless.

Because you can pick up back-ups for nothing anytime in the NHL, because he is no better than Irving or even Taylor as a back-up, because back-ups play so rarely that getting one means basically nothing to a team especially one that is bottom 5.

Getting a back-up that is solely a back-up and nothing more (ie not young guy developing into a starter) is never a great move because they play such an insignificant role and are so readily available all the time.

JiriHrdina · 10-08-2013, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moon

Because you can pick up back-ups for nothing anytime in the NHL, because he is no better than Irving or even Taylor as a back-up, because back-ups play so rarely that getting one means basically nothing to a team especially one that is bottom 5.

Getting a back-up that is solely a back-up and nothing more (ie not young guy developing into a starter) is never a great move because they play such an insignificant role and are so readily available all the time.

This completely ignores that for years the Flames struggled to find a quality backup that could win games.

Here are back-up win totals for the last few years prior to Macdonald being acquired

2012: 2 (Karlsson/Irving)
2011: 4 (Karlsson)
2010: 5 (McBackup/Toskala)
2009: 1 (McBackup)
2008: 3 (Joseph)
2007: 3 (Noodles)
2006: 4 (Suave/Boucher)

No you can argue that's because the team played Kipper so much. But they also played Kipper because the back-ups couldn't win.

Point being - you are completely ignoring the facts that show the Flames have struggled to actually get quality play out of that position.

strombad · 10-08-2013, 05:31 PM

Taking a little bit from what Moon said, I have to say this:
We're all arguing about who's starting what game and why, after 3 games played, while holding the worst Goaltending tandem in the entire NHL.
Come on son.
They'll both get starts, and if one gets more, well, it's not like we're stifling the progress of the next all-star goaltender. Right now they're both playing like backups. Simple as that. If you want to analyse the numbers and pick apart who's should be the next backup goaltender to fall victim to our risky defence, then by all means, do as your heart compels you.

I think almost everyone in here believes more in a future of Gillies and Brossoit than they do in a future of Ramo or MacDonald.

moon · 10-08-2013, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

This completely ignores that for years the Flames struggled to find a quality backup that could win games.

Here are back-up win totals for the last few years prior to Macdonald being acquired

2012: 2 (Karlsson/Irving)
2011: 4 (Karlsson)
2010: 5 (McBackup/Toskala)
2009: 1 (McBackup)
2008: 3 (Joseph)
2007: 3 (Noodles)
2006: 4 (Suave/Boucher)

No you can argue that's because the team played Kipper so much. But they also played Kipper because the back-ups couldn't win.

Point being - you are completely ignoring the facts that show the Flames have struggled to actually get quality play out of that position.

Most of those years the Flames made the play-offs with little trouble and I can't really remember losing a play-off game because we didn't have a quality back-up. I also am not so sure that MacDonald is any better than most of those guys on that list or that he gives the team any more wins if he replaces them.

In our division alone this year:

Edmonton- LaBarbera gave up nothing great move
Phoenix- Griess gave up nothing great move
Anaheim- Fasth gave up nothing great move
Vancouver- Lask gave up nothing great move
LA- Scrivens hard to say what they gave up for him directly, have Jones gave up nothing great move

SJ- picked Stalock with 4th round pick which is basically nothing

So in our division alone we have 5 teams that all made "great moves" picking up their back-ups for nothing, LA that has Jones who is comparable to MacDonald and others which they got for nothing and SJ that paid the most for their back-up with a 4th round pick.

I guess our division could have 6 genius GM's in it or picking up a back up goalie for nothing might not be such a great move as it is the norm for teams.

Calgary4LIfe · 10-08-2013, 05:50 PM

Could be a variety of reasons why Ramo isn't starting:

- MacDonald is trade bait soon - perhaps with all the Philly rumors..
- Ramo needs more time - working with him on positioning/communication (looked lost at times handling/not handling the puck)
- Ramo has a slight injury/tweak
- They don't want to start Ramo at home yet until Ramo has more games under his belt - more pressure at home.

I am personally not putting much stock into whom starts more games for the first 10 or so. Ramo isn't a goalie that has been playing in North America for quite some time. I see him as someone the Flames are bringing about slowly as they have the relative luxury of a decent backup for the first time in years. Slowly adjust him, give him a few more starts after he gets more practices, and see how (or if) he improves.

I would imagine the Flames will take their time with both Ramo and Berra this year, and probably leaving a bit of a window for Ortio late in the season I would assume.

Enoch Root · 10-08-2013, 05:53 PM

They were just saying on the FAN that MacDonald's track record against the Habs is solid, including a GAA in the high ones

FlamesAddiction · 10-08-2013, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

They were just saying on the FAN that MacDonald's track record against the Habs is solid, including a GAA in the high ones

Sounds like superstition. How long ago and how many games has he actually played against them?

Parallex · 10-08-2013, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strombad

Right now they're both playing like backups.

No right now MacDonald is playing with back-up like quality... Ramo isn't playing like a back-up because Hartley for whatever (faulty I'm sure) reasoning isn't playing him.

strombad · 10-08-2013, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parallex

No right now MacDonald is playing with back-up like quality... Ramo isn't playing like a back-up because Hartley for whatever (faulty I'm sure) reasoning isn't playing him.

Allow me to clarify.
In all available examples, both Mac and Ramo have performed at a similar level to that of a dependable backup goaltender.

But hey, that Hartley, what a goof! Obviously you know more than a professional coach who is with the team every day as to who is the better guy to play in net.

moon · 10-08-2013, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strombad

But hey, that Hartley, what a goof! Obviously you know more than a professional coach who is with the team every day as to who is the better guy to play in net.

So if every move made by hockey coaches or GM's aren't able to be criticized by us is there really much of a point of having a message board?

I guess we can pass on news to each other but the argument that Hartley is an NHL coach so no second guessing him seems pretty silly on a message board.

Most people (if not all) are being pretty reasonable about it and just trying to figure out the reasoning behind it because based on what we have seen and heard it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I think most people should be able to do that on a message board without the Hartley is the coach so he knows best so leave it at that.

JiriHrdina · 10-08-2013, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moon

Most of those years the Flames made the play-offs with little trouble and I can't really remember losing a play-off game because we didn't have a quality back-up. I also am not so sure that MacDonald is any better than most of those guys on that list or that he gives the team any more wins if he replaces them.

In our division alone this year:

Edmonton- LaBarbera gave up nothing great move
Phoenix- Griess gave up nothing great move
Anaheim- Fasth gave up nothing great move
Vancouver- Lask gave up nothing great move
LA- Scrivens hard to say what they gave up for him directly, have Jones gave up nothing great move

SJ- picked Stalock with 4th round pick which is basically nothing

So in our division alone we have 5 teams that all made "great moves" picking up their back-ups for nothing, LA that has Jones who is comparable to MacDonald and others which they got for nothing and SJ that paid the most for their back-up with a 4th round pick.

I guess our division could have 6 genius GM's in it or picking up a back up goalie for nothing might not be such a great move as it is the norm for teams.

Not having a quality backup arguably cost the Flames in terms of a higher seeding and the number 1 being overworked when playoffs started. Again if it was that easy why did the Flames struggle to find a capable backup?

dammage79 · 10-08-2013, 08:42 PM

Was hoping MacDonald would take a seat tomorrow. Also was hoping Butler and Obrien were going to take a night off as well. Can't have everything I suppose.

New Jersey is very beatable. Would be nice to see a good win without some lead collapse.

Vulcan · 10-08-2013, 08:47 PM

IIRC Hartley has said that he relies on Malarchuk to give him the low down on the goalies, so it may not be Hartley's decision but yeah I'd prefer to see Ramo as well. With MacDonald what you see is what you get but with Ramo there are good possibilities.

DOOM · 10-08-2013, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dammage79

Was hoping MacDonald would take a seat tomorrow. Also was hoping Butler and Obrien were going to take a night off as well. Can't have everything I suppose.

New Jersey is very beatable. Would be nice to see a good win without some lead collapse.

Montreal, New Jersey is on Friday.

dammage79 · 10-08-2013, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOOM

Montreal, New Jersey is on Friday.

Right, thanks. Wasn't looking when I made that post.
I'd also like to add that I want to see Berra instead of those other two.