Clearly then, the solution is for all of this is a big fight. Israel wants a war, fine. It's not like the rest of that region hasn't been spoiling for a fight for fifty years or anything. If both sides were capable of resolving this cluster-eff peacefully, it would have happened by now.
So much like Afghanistan and Iraq, let what will happen, happen. Personally, if I'm any other Middle Eastern arab nation, I'm terrified of an all-out war with Israel. But if they're going to keep being dicks and talking about how they only desire to drive the Jews into the sea etc, then put up or shut up. If you want to have a war, have a ####ing war. But don't be the biggest a-holes on the planet and then cry foul when they hit you with rockets.
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Originally Posted by blankall
Firstly, it was 7,000 settlers removed from the Gaza Strip, not 250. Secondly, was it more "frightening" than dragging bodies behind motorcycles or throwing people off of buildings, which is what Hamas does to their opposition or anyone they decide is a "spy".
Also, Hamas won a general election in 2006. So they must have had some popularity, despite their stated goal of military conflict. The whole rockets thing really wasn't a surprise to anyone. Hamas's popularity also seems to be climbing with Palestinians, not declining:
I missed a zero. Thought it was 2500 that were the final holdouts who had to be removed semi-forcibly. At any rate, the article you quote is from 2005? Undoubtedly Hamas was elected. The reasons behind that election result are numerous.
I suppose I should respond to the "frightening" part. Yes, Hamas is frightening. I find extremists of any sort frightening. Israelis and Palestinians have no shortage.
I missed a zero. Thought it was 2500 that were the final holdouts who had to be removed semi-forcibly. At any rate, the article you quote is from 2005? Undoubtedly Hamas was elected. The reasons behind that election result are numerous.
I suppose I should respond to the "frightening" part. Yes, Hamas is frightening. I find extremists of any sort frightening. Israelis and Palestinians have no shortage.
Oopps. Also meant to link to the current articles to contrast them with the articles prior to their takeover:
Sure, can you provide me with a list of violent acts taht they've comitted over the last couple of deades though?
I'm not being a smart a%% I couldn't finds them
So now that I've provided the requisite information, are you now willing to accept that fundamentalist zionism within Israel is a poison on peace talks and a massive obstacle towards a peaceful resolution?
So now that I've provided the requisite information, are you now willing to accept that fundamentalist zionism within Israel is a poison on peace talks and a massive obstacle towards a peaceful resolution?
I've never denied that fact, there are what I call monsters on both sides that depend on violence and fear to impose their values or get what they want.
The world will be a better place when they are no longer part of it.
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This propaganda we sometimes hear about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict being equal to or worse than the Holocaust is absolutely disgusting. It's said by people looking to minimize the evil the Holocaust actually was, turn its acute emotional impact against the Jews, and shape the tragedy into current political benefit.
The Jews suffered almost 6 million dead during the Holocaust. They suffered a systematic program intended to destroy their entire people, with major population centres spanning multiple countries targeted. Civilians were brought out en mass in some locations, like in the Ukraine, and executed due to the simple fact of them being Jews and the claim that Jews were inherently partisans. They were targeted for mass murder for the simple fact of who they were. Extermination camps were set up where hundreds of thousands of Jews were shipped to. They were put in unventilated train cars, separating child from mother, where many died along the way, only to be unloaded, used as slave labour in many cases until they collapsed, and then gassed. Jews were forced to wear arm bands so any non-Jew could identify them at a glance in order to facilitate easier discrimination.
Palestinian civilians dying is a bad thing. Israeli arms are responsible for the deaths of many Palestinians. However, Israel does not force Palestinian civilians to dig their own graves, then shoot them all. They do not have a bureaucratic system designed for the sole task of eliminating every last one of their people. They do not have death camps. There is no Sonderkommando 4a equivalent. Palestinian-Arabs live freely -- and quite well, might I add -- within the nation of Israel. Palestinians are not dehumanized to such a level that they are tormented in the streets by Israeli policemen just for the entertainment of seeing a Palestinian writhe in agony. The Jews of the Holocaust did not have the ability to elect their own government which could then arm itself.
To compare the Palestinian/Israeli conflict to the Holocaust, and claim it as "far worse" is not only completely wrong, it's also morally despicable. It's a political claim with a very sinister undertone: the attempted debasement of what the Holocaust actually was.
This was the Holocaust, and frankly anyone claiming the two are equivalent or that the Jews are doing the work of the Nazis should be ashamed of themselves:
Spoiler!
[
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Of course, this talk I hear about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict being equal to or worse than the Holocaust, or that the Zionists are the new Nazis, is not supremely surprising considering the organization that the Palestinians elected into power, one that many people view as a group of freedom fighters striving against the Jewish oppressors. Debasing the Holocaust and replacing its tragedy with the tragedy of the Palestinian conflict has been a strategy used by some of the Islamist groups and individuals of the area for awhile now:
Quote:
"It was an unjustified and unhelpful visit that served only the Zionist occupation," said Fawzi Barhoum, a spokesman for Hamas [on the visit of Ziad al-Bandak, advisor to Abbas, to Auschwitz]. Hamas rejects Israel's existence and interim peace accords reached by Abbas' more moderate Fatah group with Israel.
Barhoum further called Bandak's visit to Auschwitz, a camp where the Nazis killed 1.5 million people, most of them Jews but also other Polish citizens, during World War Two, as "a marketing of a false Zionist alleged tragedy."
He said he saw this as coming "at the expense of a real Palestinian tragedy," alluding to Israel's control over territory where Palestinians live and seek to establish a state.
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No, thankfully Israel has done nothing resembling the holocaust. That was a uniquely horrific event.
I do feel bad for the poster above, however. Clearly he or she is close enough to the conflict to feel real distress at seeing the images in that video.
This propaganda we sometimes hear about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict being equal to or worse than the Holocaust is absolutely disgusting. It's said by people looking to minimize the evil the Holocaust actually was, turn its acute emotional impact against the Jews, and shape the tragedy into current political benefit.
The Jews suffered almost 6 million dead during the Holocaust. They suffered a systematic program intended to destroy their entire people, with major population centres spanning multiple countries targeted. Civilians were brought out en mass in some locations, like in the Ukraine, and executed due to the simple fact of them being Jews and the claim that Jews were inherently partisans. They were targeted for mass murder for the simple fact of who they were. Extermination camps were set up where hundreds of thousands of Jews were shipped to. They were put in unventilated train cars, separating child from mother, where many died along the way, only to be unloaded, used as slave labour in many cases until they collapsed, and then gassed. Jews were forced to wear arm bands so any non-Jew could identify them at a glance in order to facilitate easier discrimination.
Palestinian civilians dying is a bad thing. Israeli arms are responsible for the deaths of many Palestinians. However, Israel does not force Palestinian civilians to dig their own graves, then shoot them all. They do not have a bureaucratic system designed for the sole task of eliminating every last one of their people. They do not have death camps. There is no Sonderkommando 4a equivalent. Palestinian-Arabs live freely -- and quite well, might I add -- within the nation of Israel. Palestinians are not dehumanized to such a level that they are tormented in the streets by Israeli policemen just for the entertainment of seeing a Palestinian writhe in agony. The Jews of the Holocaust did not have the ability to elect their own government which could then arm itself.
To compare the Palestinian/Israeli conflict to the Holocaust, and claim it as "far worse" is not only completely wrong, it's also morally despicable. It's a political claim with a very sinister undertone: the attempted debasement of what the Holocaust actually was.
This was the Holocaust, and frankly anyone claiming the two are equivalent or that the Jews are doing the work of the Nazis should be ashamed of themselves:
Spoiler!
[
It goes so far beyond that, Russia had its own version of the Holocaust that was never effectively reported on.
When the Nazi's took other nations like Austria, France and the other European states people were willing to rise up and join the great hate against the Jews.
Refugee's that flooded to America and Canada in the face of Nazi Atrocities were turned back and sent home.
As much as we like to deny it, I don't know if there is a Religion or group of people that have been persecuted on such a high level with the intent of extermination then the Jews
Some people shout from the roof tops that they need to let it go, that its in the past, but even when they formed a Jewish State they were continually attacked by their neighbours.
Israel as a nation believes that the only way that their nation can be protected is by their own strong hands. The UN won't protect them, they don't really trust the U.S. to protect them when the bullets fly.
They have a history of passively allowing themselves to be weeded out and marched off to camps or killed, when they got their own state they mandated that they would aggressively protect themselves.
So when they strike back after rocket attacks it goes back to that bunker mentallity.
However, in a lot of ways they have become too aggressive in their zeal for safety. They don't trust diplomacy, they don't believe that if they give anything away that its going to be honored with greater safety and security .
Like I said the radical right in their nation can be just as bad as anyone out there, but I conclude that their aims are based around protecting themselves. On the other side you have radical groups that would be happy to see another holocaust, and I'm looking at you Hamas and Hezhollah.
The world would be a better place without the radical elements. But even if the radical elements went away, I don't think that you would change the Israeli pre-occupation with security and aggressive defense.
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So Hamas can re-arm and start launching rockets by the end of the year?
In all honesty though, thats great news. A stop-gap is better then nothing.
I'm hoping Hamas will see that is a total waste of time. They ended up killing 5 Israelis, but their own casualties were far worse, including strikes at their own leadership. And maybe it's my imagination, but Hamas seemed to get a lot less sympathy in the press this time around.
I'm hoping Hamas will see that is a total waste of time. They ended up killing 5 Israelis, but their own casualties were far worse, including strikes at their own leadership. And maybe it's my imagination, but Hamas seemed to get a lot less sympathy in the press this time around.
That's because they believe that the innocents that were killed are not only martyrs, but they make an excellent propaganda and political statement.
AS much as we call Hamas a terrorist group, they are a political animal as well.
The more deaths that occur the more cracks form in international support for Israel
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It's pretty surprising actually. Normally several European nations step up with statements against Israel. Even more telling are France's comments in reference to the upcoming bid for Palestinian UN recognigtion:
Quote:
French Foreign Minister Fabius said at a press conference last night that France doesn’t have a position yet on whether it will back or oppose the PLO's bid to obtain observer status at the United Nations on Nov. 29. He said France will make a decision once it knows what the positions of other European countries are, and after reading the resolution containing the bid. However, he said the timing of the Palestinian bid is awkward given the current conflict.
“It doesn’t seem to us that this moment is the best,” he said.
The current French foreign ministe, Laurent Fabius, is a member of the French Socialist Party. These kind of statements are even more shockign coming from the left.
