[News] With the 104th overall pick, the Flames select LW John Gaudreau

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by New Era

...See, that isn't the solution either. Setoguchi has been out played by a number of players that could end up being short-changed. I personally thought last night was Setoguchi's best performance in a Flames jersey, and it paled in comparison to the efforts, and results, put forth by other players. It pisses me off that at least two of Gaudreau, Granlund, Ferland, and Baertschi are going to be sent packing and Setoguchi is going to be on the roster.

The thing is, Setoguchi and other established NHLers have a different pace to get up to playing speed than do prospects—prospects who have been playing for several weeks longer. There should be no problem if Setoguchi is given an extra two or three weeks to prove himself. He can be dispatched to Adirondack at ANY time and replaced by one of the other worthy players—whomever happens to be stepping up in the early stages of the AHL season.

I have said this now a bunch of times, and it still bears repeating. Previous NHL experience counts for SOMETHING. Even within Hartley's mantra of "earned not given" previous experience will factor in at some point. It's not a slight against young players, and its not something to get worked up about because they will all get their shot—if not all this season.

Originally Posted by New Era

The same extends to other veterans as well. I just don't see how Wideman keeps a job. And that's with little competition on the blueline. As much as I have developed a deep respect for Stajan I'm left wondering if the team isn't better off without him and one of the young centers filling that role. His leadership is probably something you sit on, but he's almost at the point where he no longer has a position on this roster.

Staring defensemen will be

Giordano · Brodie
Engeland · Wideman
Smid · Russell
Diaz

Who do you replace Wideman with?

[PeteMoss]

Has Jones even played in the pre-season? Why exactly is he being tossed under the bus for his play when he's barely played at all.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

The thing is, Setoguchi and other established NHLers have a different pace to get up to playing speed than do prospects—prospects who have been playing for several weeks longer.

Maybe that should change? If a guy can't come to camp prepared to beat out someone competing for the same job then I see a problem. I really don't care how long the prospects have been playing. If you're coming to camp to earn a job, be prepared to out play anyone who challenges you. You shouldn't have to rely on an excuse of a needing a different pace. These guys are supposed to be professionals at the height of their field. They should get schooled by some young kid coming in.

There should be no problem if Setoguchi is given an extra two or three weeks to prove himself. He can be dispatched to Adirondack at ANY time and replaced by one of the other worthy players—whomever happens to be stepping up in the early stages of the AHL season.

Sure, if the team doesn't mind risking the first month of the season. If the team is serious about competing, they ice the best team out of the gate. If Setoguchi, or any other veteran for that matter, needs a few more weeks to get their #### together then maybe they should do that in Adirondack and let the players who came to camp prepared to compete for a job play in the NHL. These guys are supposed to be professionals. Maybe they should start preparing and acting like it?

I have said this now a bunch of times, and it still bears repeating. Previous NHL experience counts for SOMETHING.

I hear what you are saying, and it makes some sense. If you are a star player at your position, then sure, that counts for something. If you are some shlub on a one year, league minimum contract, who has been on a massive decline and under-performed for each of the last two teams you were employed by, then that experience means NOTHING. Wouldn't you agree? Otherwise, shouldn't Brookbank still have a month to show his stuff?

Even within Hartley's mantra of "earned not given" previous experience will factor in at some point. It's not a slight against young players, and its not something to get worked up about because they will all get their shot—if not all this season.

See, here's where we really have a departure on philosophy. Why should a guy have a spot handed to him because he was good five years ago? If he gets worked by four other guys in camp, why should he get an extra month to try and get his crap together because he was an effective NHLer several years ago? You may think it means nothing, but tell that to the kid who worked his ass off to prove he was better, and did so, and lost out on $100K because some veteran 'needs' another month to prove himself. If the guy is essentially on a tryout contract, and he doesn't impress more than four other guys, does he really deserve more time?

Who do you replace Wideman with?

Take your pick of any of the guys that got sent down. Wideman was the worst defenseman in camp by a large margin. Of course Wideman has never been much of a defenseman to begin with, but he's been exceptionally bad. To make things worse, he's been bad trying to move the puck out of the zone and on the PP. I appreciate there are other things that come into play when selecting who you retain on the roster, but when a guy stands out like that, you have to do something. Man, I thought Brookbank looked better, and they flat out released the guy.

[FBI]

Because Jones has played well in about 3 total games with the Flames, the rest have sucked.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by New Era

See, here's where we really have a departure on philosophy. Why should a guy have a spot handed to him because he was good five years ago? If he gets worked by four other guys in camp, why should he get an extra month to try and get his crap together because he was an effective NHLer several years ago?

Except it WASN'T several years ago. Setoguchi scored at a 20-goal pace two seasons ago. In a very disappointing season he still registered close to 30 points and he is still not yet 28-years-old.

And I am not talking about having a spot "handed to him." Like I said, the value of past experience and accomplishments is almost certainly part of the process in determining what players have earned.

Originally Posted by New Era

You may think it means nothing, but tell that to the kid who worked his ass off to prove he was better, and did so, and lost out on $100K because some veteran 'needs' another month to prove himself. If the guy is essentially on a tryout contract, and he doesn't impress more than four other guys, does he really deserve more time?

First of all, Setoguchi's contract is not "essentially" a tryout deal. It is a one-way NHL contract. Second, the whole situation of determining the shape of the opening night roster is much more complicated than merely deciding who had the best camp. Decisions will be made factoring into consideration other things, such as what is determined to be the best (or least harmful) course of action for the prospects.

Originally Posted by New Era

...I appreciate there are other things that come into play when selecting who you retain on the roster, but when a guy stands out like that, you have to do something.

If he looks competent once the season starts (and there is no reason to expect that Wideman will not look at least competent), then why do you "have to do something" in the event h has a poor camp?

Originally Posted by New Era

...Man, I thought Brookbank looked better, and they flat out released the guy.

We don't see everything that's going on in camp. Again, I suspect the measure for Wideman to make the team probably has very little to do with how he performs in camp. He is working on getting up to playing speed, and the coaching staff probably recognises that.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by FBI

Because Jones has played well in about 3 total games with the Flames, the rest have sucked.

That’s the thing, isn’t it? I agree, previous NHL experience counts for something. Previous experience at sucking should count for something too.

[Burke Salad]

Forget sending Johnny down, this organization has got to work harder at finding skilled players that can actually think the game at this kids level.

[heep223]

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Except it WASN'T several years ago. Setoguchi scored at a 20-goal pace two seasons ago. In a very disappointing season he still registered close to 30 points and he is still not yet 28-years-old.

Seriously? Setoguchi has been a bum since he was traded to Minnesota. He wasn't that good after he was demoted while in San Jose. He was so bad last season that Winnipeg, that's right, the Jets, decided they didn't want him back. No one wanted him, which is why he took the league minimum contract from the Flames just before training camps were gearing up.

And I am not talking about having a spot "handed to him." Like I said, the value of past experience and accomplishments is almost certainly part of the process in determining what players have earned.

And Setoguchi earned no contract offers, at league minimum, from any other team including the one who employed him last season.

First of all, Setoguchi's contract is not "essentially" a tryout deal. It is a one-way NHL contract. Second, the whole situation of determining the shape of the opening night roster is much more complicated than merely deciding who had the best camp. Decisions will be made factoring into consideration other things, such as what is determined to be the best (or least harmful) course of action for the prospects.

It is a league minimum contract signed just prior to the team prepping up for training camp. It is a contract the team would have no worries about burying if they had to, and a contract they could probably dump if needed to. That's essentially a try out contract. The only thing different is Setoguchi got some guaranteed money.

So I guess the best, or least harmful, course of action is to send a kid to the minors when he has stepped up and clearly beat a veteran out for a job? I think we saw how that can destroy some player's confidence, which can be a pretty substantial risk. I think Baertschi has done more than enough to earn a place on the opening day roster, especially when compared to Setoguchi. I think the kid worked his ass off all off season, even with broken ribs, and came to camp prepared to earn a job. He exceeded expectations and deserves to be rewarded. I am more than a little concerned what it would do to his head to send him down, while keeping a player who did not perform to the same level. What is best for the player here? Rewarding a highly regarded skill player, who has shown he deserves the job, or sending him to the minors to see whether a player with no upside can get his #### together?

If he looks competent once the season starts (and there is no reason to expect that Wideman will not look at least competent), then why do you "have to do something" in the event h has a poor camp?

We don't see everything that's going on in camp. Again, I suspect the measure for Wideman to make the team probably has very little to do with how he performs in camp. He is working on getting up to playing speed, and the coaching staff probably recognises that.

If he hasn't looked competent now, how is he going to look better when the season starts? Again, and you keep dodging this point, why should the team throw away games at the start of the season to see of their veterans can get their #### together? Isn't that what off-season training and training camp is for? The days of using training camp to get ready for the NHL season are long gone. The kids coming in these days are bigger, more skilled, and more mature than they have been in years gone by. If these guys come to camp and think they are not competing against these kids, well they shouldn't be on this hockey team.

The attitude of using training camp and the first 20 games of the season to get ready is out-dated thinking. That is what Iginla did for years and it drove this team into the crapper and the fans crazy. Games at the start of the season are just as important as those at the end. A win in October is worth just as much as a win in March. It is important to get out of the gate quickly and build some momentum. You can't do that when you have several players in the lineup who are still trying to 'get up to speed' or 'prove themselves' to the coaching staff. Your argument is the team should embrace a loser mentality because that is the way some guys approach their preparation for the season. I don't buy that. The team should be ready for battle come the first game of the season and that means icing a lineup of the players that showed they want to be on the team.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Except Treliving and Hartley.

To provide insurance in case Gaudreau wasn't ready. Setoguchi is at least a replacement level NHL player - even if the brass was 99% sure Gaudreau was going to bust out this year, it would be irresponsible of them to not take out a $750K insurance policy in the form of a former 30 goal scorer who happened to grow up 30 minutes down the road.

[TSXCman]

Hey, huge picture guy, you're stretching out the forum!

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

The thing is, Setoguchi and other established NHLers have a different pace to get up to playing speed than do prospects—prospects who have been playing for several weeks longer. There should be no problem if Setoguchi is given an extra two or three weeks to prove himself. He can be dispatched to Adirondack at ANY time and replaced by one of the other worthy players—whomever happens to be stepping up in the early stages of the AHL season.



I have said this now a bunch of times, and it still bears repeating. Previous NHL experience counts for SOMETHING. Even within Hartley's mantra of "earned not given" previous experience will factor in at some point. It's not a slight against young players, and its not something to get worked up about because they will all get their shot—if not all this season.





Staring defensemen will be



Giordano · Brodie

Engeland · Wideman

Smid · Russell

Diaz



Who do you replace Wideman with?

I generally agree but Setoguchi is a reclamation project and is paid as such. I would think it would behoove him to prove himself at every opportunity and not presume to take the typical veteran preparation path. Ultimately it may depend on what directions management gave him...if they told him to work himself into shape, fine, if they told him to win a job, he may not have.

[Muta]

Awesome article on Gaudreau from the Herald's George Johnson:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/...038/story.html

He was always committed to the Flames, and the Flames only, since day one.

[AcGold]

I liked the bit on him doing drills with Skittles. Gaudreau is awsome

[Dion]

wrong thread

[FlameZilla]

Made the team. Was there ever any doubt??

[GoJetsGo]

Really hope we see him wearing #13 on Wednesday...

[saillias]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

Made the team. Was there ever any doubt??

To fans who didn't fully comprehend how other-worldly his skill level is.

[saXon]

Originally Posted by Muta

Awesome article on Gaudreau from the Herald's George Johnson:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/...038/story.html

He was always committed to the Flames, and the Flames only, since day one.

My favorite bit of truth from that article is:

...or sliding ethereally past a Kevin Bieksa root-canal elbow.

Vancouver plays dirty and are no good.

[flamesfever]

The thing I like about Johnny the most, besides his hockey ability, is his unassuming, grateful manner. I think he will be a great role model for young athletes.