Alberta Politics Thread

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Do you remember how much you were paying for rent and groceries at that time? Because the minimum wage has only gone up between 24-40% since then, I would guess that since housing prices have more than doubled inflation has outpaced the wage which you claim was liveable for you at the time

Minimum wage was $5.00 in 95-97. Stop making ridiculous claims and do some damn research.

[nik-]

I made $4.50/hr at my first job in 96

edit: damn, those ####ers paid me below minimum wage. It took me two raises to get to $5.00

[KevanGuy]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

95-97 I was making around $8 or $9 an hour working at bookstores, approx 30 hours a week.

Minimum wage was less than that back then. More like $5.50.

[KevanGuy]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Do you remember how much you were paying for rent and groceries at that time? Because the minimum wage has only gone up between 24-40% since then,

Wrong.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by nik-

I made $4.50/hr at my first job in 96

edit: damn, those ####ers paid me below minimum wage. It took me two raises to get to $5.00

Were you under 18?

[nik-]

yeah, I guess a different rate for kids back then?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

I'm not sure what your point is. Given rising costs, including rising minimum wage, is actively costing people jobs right now, perhaps you should tell me which you feel is preferable.

My point is you are consistently devaluing the contributions minimum wage workers make. So I was asking how you compare the two, but you choose to not answer and that's fine. I think the best scenario is where both the employer and the employee are able to not burden the economy. Raising the minimum wage may help in this regard, the status quo will not. And yes I'm well aware that some businesses may suffer but am fairly confident the negative impact felt by employers who are employing only 10% of the workforce in this province will not cripple our economy.

Don't conflate the value of the task with the importance of the individual, please. These are different things. Also, stating that a low value task has low value is not an attack on an individual doing those jobs. I am quite sure nearly all of us have performed low value tasks. And for nearly all of us, they were stepping stones as we learned, grew, and eventually took on better jobs that require greater skills.

So would you feel that if a worker earns his employer $75k in profit while earning $25k for himself he is a less valuable contributor to his employer than a worker who makes his employer $100k in profit while earning a salary of $50k? The reason people don't want to work minimum wage jobs is simply because they pay minimum wage, there are a lot more unskilled labour jobs that pay much higher because people don't want to do that work. Working in fast food isn't the most complicated job, but I wouldn't classify it as easy either or even enjoyable in some cases. The argument of anyone can do those jobs and that's why they pay so low is misinformed. There are a lot of jobs that anyone can do that pay more than minimum wage.

And please spare us the "I did it this way and it worked out fine" the reality is if you are referring to a time period over 10 years ago than that is completely irrelevant to today's economic landscape. Inflation has outpaced minimum wage by a sizeable margin.

I don't know your age but say you started browsing the Internet with a 14.4k modem when that was still useable but starting to become dated and would make web browsing challenging, would it make sense for you to say people should be able to surf the web today with a 56k modem and be able to get a lot done with it because that's better than what you used and you managed? No because the technology advanced a lot faster then that and that 56k is not going to cut it, if you want to use the internet you are going to need something better. That is what has happened here economically, inflation outpaced minimum wage increases, the only difference here the employer is stopping you from being able to close the gap because you can just go out and say I'll just go get a job that will cover the necessities of life, employers offer the least they can and if that's not enough too bad, they'll just wait until you or someone else is desperate enough to to work at that wage because they know social programs will help this worker they are keeping poor for the sake of profits.

Umm. If I am reading this right, you believe that we will make the economy stronger by putting people out of work so that the fewer people who have jobs can make more money, which in turn will create more jobs?

In reality, the higher wages is an added expense and the increased unemployment reduces potential customers, neither of which encourages growth.

No, you are continuing to ignore the answers to your questions that are in many of my posts. The initial(potential) job losses that occur will slow down the economy in the short term if employees and employers are out of work due to a shut down, however the lost revenue generated from consumer dollars by those businesses will be spent at other businesses which will allow those businesses to grow and that will create more jobs, plus the other people who will be earning more will also have more money to contribute as well as to invest in potentially starting up their own business which will also help.

Right now you're reading this likely waiting to type "yeah but everything else will get more expensive" some businesses may raise prices to compensate yes, but you are ignoring the fact that the wages of 90% of the employees in this province will be completely unaffected by this change. Which services that you use will really go up? Groceries? Superstore is the cheapest place to go for groceries by far and their workers make much more than $15 on average. You don't like shopping at superstore? Well then you don't mind paying more for your groceries anyways so the point is moot. Rent will go up? Something tells me the current vacancy rate would slow down any kind of an increase.

Going to eat out at a fast food place? Those companies have the ability to absorb the cost without raising prices, to anyone who wants to debate this, ask yourself this, why would they be opening up new locations everywhere if they weren't making mountains of cash? Yeah they might try to raise prices, but that will only go as far as out consumer buying power let's it. When the customers stop coming in, the prices will fall, if they continue to go up, that's not because of minimum wage, it's because we're willing to pay way too much for garbage food.

Movie theaters? Yeah the minimum wage is the reason they're raising prices...

Small businesses may suffer if they cannot adapt but I'm not sure why you are so concerned about their well being but not for those they are keeping poor. Yes they are creating jobs, but not ones that are a positive contributor to the economy. And yes if they close down jobs will be lost, my earlier point in this post addresses your short term concern.

And now we are back to emotional rhetoric.

But FWIW, I grew up in a single-mother household and we certainly were not 1%ers. Going to McDonalds once a month was a treat. And yes, we dealt with it. And as far as education and landing in higher paying industries, both my sister and I figured it out. No, it isn't easy. But it certainly wasn't worse than creating a world where we could have been satisfied flipping burgers for a living.

I can only assume this is in response to someone else's comment. However, casting aspersions the way you are is not a convincing argument.

They fact that you say it wasn't easy growing up in and working your way out of the lower class should be enough of an argument in itself to make changes to the system. Did you have kids while you did it? Were you physically or mentally ill? Did you have any additional issues? Think about those folks before you cast judgement.

Do you hold resentment towards society for having it so hard growing up and that's why you don't appear to care that it is even harder now? I just don't get it, according to you you overcame significant odds and made it despite the challenges which is great, I'm sure anyone here would applaud you for being able to do so.

But now you think that it is better for people to be given a near insurmountable challenge in order to break free of poverty and you think that it would be a bad thing that someone like a single mother, or a full time working student doesn't feel ashamed for working where they do? Everyone should take pride in where they work and be satisfied to some extent. Some people will never be able to work a job that isn't fast food or something else minimum wage. But they are choosing to do the best they can with what they were given and shouldn't feel ashamed. Raising the minimum wage isn't going to reward people working minimum wage jobs by shooting them up to the middle or upper middle class. What it will do is stop punishing them for being in a situation where they need to take whatever job they can get.

Even at $15/hour you would be hard pressed to own a car or an apartment, and if you do it isn't going to be on the high end of either even if you do manage to. What that wage will do for most minimum wage workers is give them a real opportunity to make a choice as to whether or not they want to continue making minimum wage or not.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

That is what has happened here economically, inflation outpaced minimum wage increases.

No it didn't. Seriously, stop talking out of your ass.

This information is easily found online.

Minimum wage was $5.00 in 1995 in Alberta.
$5.00 in 1995 dollars is worth $7.34 in 2016.
Minimum wage is about to become $12.20.

Minimum wage has significantly outpaced inflation.

[CliffFletcher]

nm

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

No it didn't. Seriously, stop talking out of your ass.

This information is easily found online.

Minimum wage was $5.00 in 1995 in Alberta.
$5.00 in 1995 dollars is worth $7.34 in 2016.
Minimum wage is about to become $12.20.

Minimum wage has significantly outpaced inflation.

I agree that we don't need a minimum wage increase, but you can't just compare an arbitrary salary to inflation. Need to understand the purchasing power of it, really. Perhaps 1995 was way too low, and now it is where it needs to be? Or maybe it is too high now.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Minimum wage was $5.00 in 95-97. Stop making ridiculous claims and do some damn research.

Ridiculous claims? I don't remember what the minimum wage rates were at the time and took what the other poster said was minimum wage and applied some math to it. Is it possible that the reason you called out my post and not their's because you're simply going to attack anything I say without even considering the logic that could be there despite a minor error.

If you had actually done some research yourself as you advised me to, you would have noticed that my estimate on housing prices was off as well. The average home price in Calgary at that time was around $130k-$140k, today it is around $415k-$425k. So yeah my calculations were off, the situation is actually a lot worse then my wrong calculations had made it out to be. Housing prices have more than tripled yet the minimum wage has barely doubled. Sorry for making ridiculous claims that in reality would have been less detrimental to the position of that poster and yourself.

Should I also apologize for not criticizing him for being somewhat hypocritical in saying that raising the minimum wage by $3.80/hour would be outrageous when he himself was making about that much above minimum wage when he doing a job he considers valueless since most anyone can do it. Maybe he wouldn't have been able to overcome the challenges that resulted from his lower class upbringing without that extra help.

Originally Posted by KevanGuy

Wrong.

Yes, yet I still managed to be right at the same time.

[CaptainCrunch]

Holy crap my first job was delivering flyers for my dads real estate business probably in 1980 and he paid me piecemeal at a nickle a flyer which means I'd have to hit 100 houses to make 5 bucks an hour.

My first full time job was in grade 10 when I worked for an ice company packing bags of ice 8 hours a day for about 5.50 an hour, that was a brain dead mind numbing job where I would pack ice cubes into a bag. I didn't need any skills except for high speed production. But I actually liked the job because I would be my walkman headphones on and just grind. But at the end of the day, my hands were completely numb and blue.

[OMG!WTF!]

Oh man stop already. Mortgage rates were 7.5% in the mid to late '90's. They're barely 2% now.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

No it didn't. Seriously, stop talking out of your ass.

This information is easily found online.

Minimum wage was $5.00 in 1995 in Alberta.
$5.00 in 1995 dollars is worth $7.34 in 2016.
Minimum wage is about to become $12.20.

Minimum wage has significantly outpaced inflation.

Compare today's prices with the price 20 years ago for the following items and tell me $5 then is worth $7.34 today and I'm talking out of my ass:

Homes
Gasoline
Movie tickets
HOCKEY TICKETS(the dark days hadn't quite started yet)
Alcohol
Cigarettes
Food
Vehicles
Bus fare
Insurance
Phone bills
Cable bills
Gas bills
Electricity bills

I think you get the point, actually unfortunately you may not.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

No it didn't. Seriously, stop talking out of your ass.

This information is easily found online.

Minimum wage was $5.00 in 1995 in Alberta.
$5.00 in 1995 dollars is worth $7.34 in 2016.
Minimum wage is about to become $12.20.

Minimum wage has significantly outpaced inflation.

Maybe the artificial two percent bench mark of inflation. Not the real rise in costs, though.

The average price for a home in Canada was $160,000, and now goes over $300,000. That's almost a 100% increase in the price of homes. Which tends to coincide with a increase in price of mortgages, and particularly rent (which low income people tend to do).

Not to mention the 100's of dollars in monthly costs that just straight up didn't exist then. Cell phones, computers, internet, cable, electronics in general (not per unit, but considering how many most people have in their household, I would bet the overall cost is higher), some of which are things necessary to function properly in our current society.

In the early 90's, average University tuition was $1,464, now it's over $5,581.

I don't need to dig much deeper or really do any further math to tell me that these numbers just don't add up with the increase of real wages.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Ducay

I agree that we don't need a minimum wage increase, but you can't just compare an arbitrary salary to inflation. Need to understand the purchasing power of it, really. Perhaps 1995 was way too low, and now it is where it needs to be? Or maybe it is too high now.

Wow, no way!! Who has been saying that since Day 1? Someone tell Notley or are the Social Sciences below her dignity to recognize?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by nik-

I made $4.50/hr at my first job in 96

edit: damn, those ####ers paid me below minimum wage. It took me two raises to get to $5.00

I made $1.90/hr at my first job in 75

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Ridiculous claims? I don't remember what the minimum wage rates were at the time and took what the other poster said was minimum wage and applied some math to it. Is it possible that the reason you called out my post and not their's because you're simply going to attack anything I say without even considering the logic that could be there despite a minor error.

If you had actually done some research yourself as you advised me to, you would have noticed that my estimate on housing prices was off as well. The average home price in Calgary at that time was around $130k-$140k, today it is around $415k-$425k. So yeah my calculations were off, the situation is actually a lot worse then my wrong calculations had made it out to be. Housing prices have more than tripled yet the minimum wage has barely doubled. Sorry for making ridiculous claims that in reality would have been less detrimental to the position of that poster and yourself.

Should I also apologize for not criticizing him for being somewhat hypocritical in saying that raising the minimum wage by $3.80/hour would be outrageous when he himself was making about that much above minimum wage when he doing a job he considers valueless since most anyone can do it. Maybe he wouldn't have been able to overcome the challenges that resulted from his lower class upbringing without that extra help.



Yes, yet I still managed to be right at the same time.

This is not accurate (and no, you didn't manage to be right at the same time).

First, the cost of a home is a function of the mortgage rate more so than the list price. Using your numbers for home prices, the cost of the mortgage payments on those homes has only increased by 73%. And that is using the 1996 mtge rate of 8%. In 1995 it was 10.6%, which means the cost of a mtge has risen only 38% since then.

Second, the 'average home price' is not necessarily comparing the same thing. In fact it is almost certainly not comparing the same thing. The average home price does not refer to some pre-determined 'average' house. It simply refers to the average sale price of the homes that sold in that period.

Third, even if they were referring to the same 'average' house (and they're not), it still wouldn't be a direct comparison because the actual size, quality and features of homes continues to improve as standards of living improve. Flooring materials, appliances, energy efficiency, windows, plumbing and bathroom features, etc etc, are all constantly improving. Another good illustration of this is vehicles. One can't simply compare the price of a car today with a car of 20 years ago because they are completely different - the tires, the brakes, the power, the emissions, the safety, the comfort, and everything else you can think of, are all vastly improved.

Hard to compare prices over time, and blame inflation, when the quality of the product is changing drastically.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Oh man stop already. Mortgage rates were 7.5% in the mid to late '90's. They're barely 2% now.

Mortgage rates were close to that rate about 10 years ago and houses we still double the price, but that doesn't matter right? What matters is at this moment the historically low interest rates which are bound to go up make a situationally convenient argument that you think supports your position. Right now the price is still double even if you take those rates into account, I'm sure bringing up the fact that property taxes were a fraction of the price as well doesn't matter to you as well, I mean taxes don't count right?

[Kjesse]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Holy crap my first job was delivering flyers for my dads real estate business probably in 1980 and he paid me piecemeal at a nickle a flyer which means I'd have to hit 100 houses to make 5 bucks an hour.

Hey rich guy, I got 3.65/hr in 1988 pumping gas at Kingsway Auto in Medicine Hat. Sounds like I was taken advantage of, your dad probably paid six cents a flyer by then. If I could go back in time I should give that gas station owner a piece of my mind how much he was oppressing me.

Fortunately, I was taught how business works early in life, and built my way to making myself more valuable to an employer. Within a year I was earning 7 bucks an hour decommissioning a fertilizer plant as a grunt.

It was a great lesson.