02-01-2020, 01:05 PM
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#3521
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Calgary, Alberta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlySports
The 301 used to go to where 69th station is now so that part got cut once the West line was complete.
I could see the north part of the 3 go to 16th ave station and then the other part of the 3 go from Heritage to a southern green line station.
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The number 3 is an extremely popular route from downtown to Heritage station. And there would still need to be a bus that has many stops along Centre Street N intersections, the number 3 most likely will not be changing; even when the green line is extended as planned.
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02-01-2020, 01:26 PM
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#3522
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Powerplay Quarterback
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzz
Having people possibly board a feeder bus, then take the 3 or 301, or one of the several others), then transfer to an LRT is recipe for fewer transit users, not more. Every transfer is another barrier. This would be worse service than they currently have.
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Yes, in the past the City has indicated that 64th Avenue is the most southern station where stopping bus routes would be beneficial.
But given how fragile Centre Street N below 16th Avenue will be with just one lane each way, Transit may end up having no choice and be forced to stop buses at 16th.
Last edited by accord1999; 02-01-2020 at 01:30 PM.
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02-01-2020, 01:28 PM
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#3523
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Powerplay Quarterback
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlySports
Maybe similar to Westbrook? Station underground with a small building and a bus loop around it
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They've indicated that the station will be surface; the older plans had 16th Avenue underground so it's most likely that they can't afford to put it underground anymore.
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02-01-2020, 01:32 PM
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#3524
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Pickle Jar Lake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by accord1999
Yes, in the past the City has indicated that 64th Avenue is the most southern station where stopping bus routes would be beneficial.
But given how fragile Centre Street N below 16th Avenue will be with just one lane each way, Transit may end up having no choice and be forced to stop buses at 16th.
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And that's why skipping the LRT for now, and using the new bridge as a busway makes a lot of sense. A dedicated transit bridge would improve service and traffic instead of making both worse.
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02-01-2020, 01:33 PM
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#3525
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Powerplay Quarterback
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiggy
I'm wondering who's going to take the train from 16th Ave? A lot of people who live that close to downtown already walk to work, or hop on the bus when its cold. All of the cars from far North will still be taking Center St cause this line doesn't help them for now. Am I missing something?
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The forecasted ridership at 16th Avenue is 11,000 trips/day, which is pretty substantial considering the entire Green Line Stage 1 is expected to only have 60-65K trips/day.
Even with the possible transfers with east/west connection,I think it's optimistic in order to make the Green Line Stage 1 look better.
Last edited by accord1999; 02-01-2020 at 01:45 PM.
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02-01-2020, 01:43 PM
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#3526
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NOT breaking news
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joborule
The number 3 is an extremely popular route from downtown to Heritage station. And there would still need to be a bus that has many stops along Centre Street N intersections, the number 3 most likely will not be changing; even when the green line is extended as planned.
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Yeah, I was thinking that maybe the 3 goes from Heritage to the new South Hill station and then the train goes downtown.
But looking at the map, that's a total nightmare.
__________________
Watching the Oilers defend is like watching fire engines frantically rushing to the wrong fire
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02-01-2020, 01:45 PM
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#3527
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Powerplay Quarterback
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzz
And that's why skipping the LRT for now, and using the new bridge as a busway makes a lot of sense. A dedicated transit bridge would improve service and traffic instead of making both worse.
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Yeah, for value and immediate transit benefit, BRT improvements would be the best. But the fear would be that if you don't have "LRT facts on the ground" north of the river now, you may never get it.
Cynically, I think the Green Line team has gone with the worst possible alignment for Centre Street N with the hope that the NC will say "No Mas" and accept BRT improvements only. Then with the savings, they can continue to build out the SE LRT.
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02-01-2020, 01:59 PM
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#3528
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Pickle Jar Lake
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I don't think a bridge is the worst option, I prefer it over the deep tunnel. The worst option is surface up centre though. Ideally they'd end the bridge in such a way that it could go underground into the bluff at that point, or elevated after, so there is a choice when funds are available.
I get what Frinkprof was saying about needing to get that bridge down now so the entire option doesn't disappear in the future. That's a good point. But I don't think it excludes the option of using it for buses in the short term.
An elevated section like this:
https://goo.gl/maps/4HQyY5HdQ1HqyXSo7
up centre to 20th ave or so would be the best cost/non-obstructive balance, I think.
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The Following User Says Thank You to Fuzz For This Useful Post:
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02-01-2020, 07:32 PM
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#3529
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormius
There are also a lot of express buses from the outlying NW / NE communities that travel down Centre St to DT. Those would only have to go to 16th Ave.
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If you happen to work on the western or eastern side of downtown, you'd also be looking at yet another transfer onto the red/blue line to get close.
The nice thing about BRT is that it can more effectively cover a destination 'zone' that is anything other than a narrow corridor (even if it's not much dedicated infrastructure at that point).
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02-02-2020, 01:08 PM
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#3530
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Calgary, Alberta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzz
I don't think a bridge is the worst option, I prefer it over the deep tunnel. The worst option is surface up centre though. Ideally they'd end the bridge in such a way that it could go underground into the bluff at that point, or elevated after, so there is a choice when funds are available.
I get what Frinkprof was saying about needing to get that bridge down now so the entire option doesn't disappear in the future. That's a good point. But I don't think it excludes the option of using it for buses in the short term.
An elevated section like this:
https://goo.gl/maps/4HQyY5HdQ1HqyXSo7
up centre to 20th ave or so would be the best cost/non-obstructive balance, I think.
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What's really the benefit of having it elevated though? Since it's a low floor train, it's pretty much a streetcar and isn't as obstructive for the whole street realm. All of centre street is going to deal with it anyway, so the short section between the river and 16th can do fine with at grade LRT. Making it elevated might actually be the worse option from a street realm perspective.
The only area that needs to be grade separated is the 16th Ave intersection. Cost wise with the new proposal, it may be cheaper now to go with the Hybird option, so we still get the underground 16th Ave station, as the the 9th Ave station.
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02-02-2020, 01:18 PM
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#3531
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Pickle Jar Lake
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I disagree that it isn't obstructive. It is still on a dedicated ROW. Yes, you can cross it more easily, but it eats 2 lanes of traffic. I haven't read anything that enables these lanes to be shared with buses. And from how Vancouver did theirs, I don't see it being a all that intrusive to the street realm.
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02-02-2020, 01:37 PM
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#3532
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Calgary, Alberta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzz
I disagree that it isn't obstructive. It is still on a dedicated ROW. Yes, you can cross it more easily, but it eats 2 lanes of traffic. I haven't read anything that enables these lanes to be shared with buses. And from how Vancouver did theirs, I don't see it being a all that intrusive to the street realm.
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It does eat up 2 lanes of traffic, so it would only be 1 each way. But I suppose the trade off in reducing the vehicles using that road is worth it from a cost perspective. As long as there's wide enough shoulder lanes, buses could still make stops along there. I figure it would be the same design as the LRT will be north of 16th Ave.
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02-02-2020, 03:58 PM
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#3533
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Powerplay Quarterback
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joborule
All of centre street is going to deal with it anyway, so the short section between the river and 16th can do fine with at grade LRT.
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I think for that narrow portion of Centre Street N between McKnight and 20th Avenue, it dropping down to one lane each way is acceptable on the assumption that the LRT would have also reached far North enough (after a few years of construction pain) where it could replace almost all buses and many car trips.
Right now, it appears to be a worst-of-both worlds situations where road capacity is badly reduced without improving transit capacity. And where there is no time frame, (or money) on when it can be improved.
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The Following User Says Thank You to accord1999 For This Useful Post:
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02-02-2020, 05:59 PM
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#3534
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Park Hyatt Tokyo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzz
I don't think a bridge is the worst option, I prefer it over the deep tunnel. The worst option is surface up centre though. Ideally they'd end the bridge in such a way that it could go underground into the bluff at that point, or elevated after, so there is a choice when funds are available.
I get what Frinkprof was saying about needing to get that bridge down now so the entire option doesn't disappear in the future. That's a good point. But I don't think it excludes the option of using it for buses in the short term.
An elevated section like this:
https://goo.gl/maps/4HQyY5HdQ1HqyXSo7
up centre to 20th ave or so would be the best cost/non-obstructive balance, I think.
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Yuck, that's hideous and would be horrible for the Center Street urban realm.
Center is going to look like this https://goo.gl/maps/kk1vSbAoNt1hvG9f9. Well, probably without the trees.
As for east/west connections, I wonder who owns the land on the SE corner of 16th that's vacant. The city could acquire it if they already haven't and use it as a pseudo transfer station. I believe the city was using it for a staging area while doing the BRT.
Last edited by topfiverecords; 02-02-2020 at 06:07 PM.
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02-02-2020, 06:02 PM
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#3535
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Pickle Jar Lake
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Pretty sure the city owns it, it's the old Brick.
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02-02-2020, 09:18 PM
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#3536
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by accord1999
I think for that narrow portion of Centre Street N between McKnight and 20th Avenue, it dropping down to one lane each way is acceptable on the assumption that the LRT would have also reached far North enough (after a few years of construction pain) where it could replace almost all buses and many car trips.
Right now, it appears to be a worst-of-both worlds situations where road capacity is badly reduced without improving transit capacity. And where there is no time frame, (or money) on when it can be improved.
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I'm sure everyone knows this, but it would dropping from 3 lanes to 1 lane at each rush hour. Yikes. For the limited benefit of phase 1 of this whole thing, I think it would make the entire project a net negative impact on moving people around this city (or at the very least across the river). How does that not threaten the future viability/support of the line extensions?
I wonder if they could cut into the eastern escarpment and realign the road lanes between 2 ave and 7 aveN, leaving space for the new line to integrate at surface, and sink into a cut/cover portal far enough south of 7 ave (retaining 4 lanes south of 16th in the long run). Cut and cover until north of 16th ave (relatively short construction bottleneck, too).
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The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to powderjunkie For This Useful Post:
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02-03-2020, 12:32 AM
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#3537
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Powerplay Quarterback
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powderjunkie
i'm sure everyone knows this, but it would dropping from 3 lanes to 1 lane at each rush hour. Yikes. For the limited benefit of phase 1 of this whole thing, i think it would make the entire project a net negative impact on moving people around this city (or at the very least across the river). How does that not threaten the future viability/support of the line extensions?
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Agreed, I think it's going to be a nightmare. Even with 3 lanes in the peak direction, it's pretty easy to jammed up. There was a tweet from the City about a jam caused by a stall that struck me because there were 7 buses trying to go north in the same frame. I don't see how it's going to work with one lane and all these buses still trying to run.
https://twitter.com/user/status/1187879423875276800
Perhaps the goal is to be so bad that it forces the UCP/Federal governments to chip in a few hundred million more to allow for a shallow tunnel.
Quote:
i wonder if they could cut into the eastern escarpment and realign the road lanes between 2 ave and 7 aven, leaving space for the new line to integrate at surface, and sink into a cut/cover portal far enough south of 7 ave (retaining 4 lanes south of 16th in the long run). Cut and cover until north of 16th ave (relatively short construction bottleneck, too).
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Gian-Carlo Carra seems to indicate that they can't afford any tunnel at this time:
https://twitter.com/user/status/1223835321168580613
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The Following User Says Thank You to accord1999 For This Useful Post:
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02-03-2020, 08:53 AM
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#3538
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Somewhere down the crazy river.
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Why don’t they just trench it and have the train cross on he lower deck of Centre St bridge?
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02-03-2020, 09:03 AM
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#3539
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In the Sin Bin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormius
Why don’t they just trench it and have the train cross on he lower deck of Centre St bridge?
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The lower deck doesn't have nearly enough clearance for that. Also, I'd be surprised if the angle you'd have to rise up to the top of the hill isn't far too steep at that point.
Last edited by Resolute 14; 02-03-2020 at 09:09 AM.
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02-03-2020, 01:38 PM
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#3540
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by accord1999
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Says the guy whose ward is getting full benefits without any compromises/losses...
Counterpoint: we can't afford to not bury it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormius
Why don’t they just trench it and have the train cross on he lower deck of Centre St bridge?
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And then what? How does it cross Memorial? Or get up the hill? And it's still a net loss of 2 lanes...
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