Russia invades Ukraine

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Peanuts compared to previous wars, yes.


I sure hope that our standards as a society aren't "well, at least it's not as bad as WWII" and we move on.



I still think the 21st Century can be the century of peace, despite the first 20 years being violent. That's my hope, anyway.

How about existing, ongoing genocides and civil wars. That are occuring... right now as well

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Guy honestly what do you want the West to do?

The madman has nukes.

This is going to sound crass, but isn’t it better for the country of Ukraine to fall than for WWIII break out and human annihilation?

The west is supporting as much as they can without escalating the situation to a global conflict in which billions will die.

Listen, I understand the Nuke thing and WW3. I really do. But instead of non stop press conferences and bragging about defending every inch of NATO, an attack on one is an attack on all etc. Act or quite pretending your acting.

With the Polish fighter jet transfer, the press conference from a few minutes ago went something like this.

We continue to support Ukraine with arms that they and we feel is needed to defend. If other NATO countries (Poland) want to loan their jets, that is up to them. Our analysts conclude that the US loaning jet's, via Poland is risky.

So we have Poland concerned with their security, rightfully so. They want the backing of NATO and the US, rightfully so. The US, fearful of escalating is ok with Poland lending jet's, but feels it's too risky for them to loan the Mig's directly, via the 3rd party.

So we statements of support and giving Ukraine what they want but not really and lot's of talk NATO members being there for each other 100%, but not really. UN talking about human rights and war crimes, but not really.

We have a lot of powerful elite's talking power and unity, but not really. We have Putin who doesn't really mess around and concludes action is action and is going to do what he want's to achieve his goal and it won't stop in Ukraine.

I just fear that he won't be stopped and than everybody looking back and wondering what happened at the start. Tactical and strategic error. I know I am in the minority but seeing this thing play out is mind boggling to me.

Can these countries actually continue to discuss democracy, human rights, war crimes and all this other non sense going forward? Or is it all talk? Maybe the leaders of these other regimes are accurate and we are all just fed BS when it doesn't matter.

I don't know anymore. Seems like crazy to me all around.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by Lego Man

Considering the circumstances, it really was the least I could do to help.

We're all so glad to see you reunited with your wife, and I'm happy I was able to positively contribute to that!

Hoping this war ends soon - it's just terrible.

At times it can be tempting to lose faith in humanity. But people like you are the reason why I never will. You truly are a hero. Thank you, Huntingwhale, and Huntingwhale's better half for being an inspiration to us all!

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by curves2000

Listen, I understand the Nuke thing and WW3. I really do. But instead of non stop press conferences and bragging about defending every inch of NATO, an attack on one is an attack on all etc. Act or quite pretending your acting.

With the Polish fighter jet transfer, the press conference from a few minutes ago went something like this.

We continue to support Ukraine with arms that they and we feel is needed to defend. If other NATO countries (Poland) want to loan their jets, that is up to them. Our analysts conclude that the US loaning jet's, via Poland is risky.

So we have Poland concerned with their security, rightfully so. They want the backing of NATO and the US, rightfully so. The US, fearful of escalating is ok with Poland lending jet's, but feels it's too risky for them to loan the Mig's directly, via the 3rd party.

So we statements of support and giving Ukraine what they want but not really and lot's of talk NATO members being there for each other 100%, but not really. UN talking about human rights and war crimes, but not really.

We have a lot of powerful elite's talking power and unity, but not really. We have Putin who doesn't really mess around and concludes action is action and is going to do what he want's to achieve his goal and it won't stop in Ukraine.

I just fear that he won't be stopped and than everybody looking back and wondering what happened at the start. Tactical and strategic error. I know I am in the minority but seeing this thing play out is mind boggling to me.

Can these countries actually continue to discuss democracy, human rights, war crimes and all this other non sense going forward? Or is it all talk? Maybe the leaders of these other regimes are accurate and we are all just fed BS when it doesn't matter.

I don't know anymore. Seems like crazy to me all around.

You don't, though. We're going on weeks now with you still bewildered and befuddled by this simple concept.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by curves2000

Listen, I understand the Nuke thing and WW3. I really do. But instead of non stop press conferences and bragging about defending every inch of NATO, an attack on one is an attack on all etc. Act or quite pretending your acting.

With the Polish fighter jet transfer, the press conference from a few minutes ago went something like this.

We continue to support Ukraine with arms that they and we feel is needed to defend. If other NATO countries (Poland) want to loan their jets, that is up to them. Our analysts conclude that the US loaning jet's, via Poland is risky.

So we have Poland concerned with their security, rightfully so. They want the backing of NATO and the US, rightfully so. The US, fearful of escalating is ok with Poland lending jet's, but feels it's too risky for them to loan the Mig's directly, via the 3rd party.

So we statements of support and giving Ukraine what they want but not really and lot's of talk NATO members being there for each other 100%, but not really. UN talking about human rights and war crimes, but not really.

We have a lot of powerful elite's talking power and unity, but not really. We have Putin who doesn't really mess around and concludes action is action and is going to do what he want's to achieve his goal and it won't stop in Ukraine.

I just fear that he won't be stopped and than everybody looking back and wondering what happened at the start. Tactical and strategic error. I know I am in the minority but seeing this thing play out is mind boggling to me.

Can these countries actually continue to discuss democracy, human rights, war crimes and all this other non sense going forward? Or is it all talk? Maybe the leaders of these other regimes are accurate and we are all just fed BS when it doesn't matter.

I don't know anymore. Seems like crazy to me all around.

I really do not know what you are confused about. The USA contributing fighter jets - either directly or indirectly - is a clear provocation to Russia and it's totally understandable why they wouldn't want to take that step to escalate tensions beyond where they already are. In terms of defending NATO, they've been very clear and consistent: you don't attack NATO. Well, NATO hasn't been attacked.

It's as if you've somehow come to think that "Russia doing horrible things and committing war crimes" must be something that results in NATO going in and stopping them from doing those things. This fundamentally misunderstands the purpose of NATO. NATO is a defensive military pact. It is not a global police organization. It does not prevent, or respond to, war crimes. It does not keep the peace or intervene to stop conflicts once they've started. It's essentially a promise that if you attack someone in NATO, you will be vaporized, potentially along with the rest of humanity... so don't do it.

And, since vaporizing all of humanity is a very big thing to threaten, the "trip wire" that causes that result needs to be very clear and very simple: do not attack NATO countries. There's no "well, maybe if you attack someone who isn't in NATO we'll still respond, but maybe not, and maybe if you commit war crimes, and they're bad enough, and it's all over the news, then we'll intervene". No. It's simple: we only act if you attack us.

So again - with all of that in mind - what exactly is it about NATO's behaviour to date that you find confusing?

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I am still stunned at the lack of military action and even pushback from major organizations like the UN, NATO and G7 nations with all of this. Start with enforcement of war crimes, start with human rights abuses and go from there.

I understand the spineless leaders of these organizations and countries love the press conferences, the lunches and patting themselves on the back and bragging about how well they are doing. Speeches of Putin paying the full price of American Military Power (STOU address) All this NATO talk about military spending, an attack on one is an attack on all BS is comical.

Seeing the back and forth and juggling of Polish airforce and US Airforce and the closing of the door on transferring the jets is the type of BS talk that Putin doesn't do. Everybody passing the buck and scared of their own shadow is exactly what Putin was expecting.

Like I said before, some leaders in history are spineless and other's make the decisions to get their message and their issue across.

Everybody sitting back and worried about the perception of escalating this war while Putin is actually escalating the assault and the war. Bombing children's hospitals and having huge numbers of Ukrainian military assisting the dead and wounded? Sure, why not? Who's going to stop us?

Slaughter is met with slaughter and when the levels of atrocities from Russia escalate to untold levels, maybe the worlds powers can than quit stroking each other off and maybe deal with the aggressor who is having trouble fueling his offensive.

I think the West is doing a good job of helping Ukraine and still keeping the war between two countries instead of it becoming a world war.

What can the UN do? right now, nothing. maybe when it's over they can attempt some trials.

NATO can't do much as the Ukraine isn't a NATO country, to start.

Here is a link to their treaty.
It doesn't say anything about NATO being able to freely ask member countries to send armies to join a conflict.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive...exts_17120.htm

and even if it did happen. you want to drag a minimum of 30 more countries into the war?

Same with the G7 Nations. they just can't up and send in an army. (not that the EU has one)

Sanctions and supplying the Ukraine, is as much as you can hope for without making the situation worse. I appreciate your passion for the issue, but I feel complaints about what the other nations are doing is misguided.

[IliketoPuck]

The pictures and videos from Ukraine are heartbreaking. I think it is a completely understandable and normal feeling to want to do everything we can to stop what is happening. That's being human, and having empathy.

I'd love for NATO to go in and put an end to the conventional war. But that all but assures a nuclear conflict, with no clear way to de-escalate the situation.

Unfortunately the only ones that can stop this without a nuclear war breaking out are the Russian people.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I am still stunned at the lack of military action and even pushback from major organizations like the UN, NATO and G7 nations with all of this. Start with enforcement of war crimes, start with human rights abuses and go from there.

I understand the spineless leaders of these organizations and countries love the press conferences, the lunches and patting themselves on the back and bragging about how well they are doing. Speeches of Putin paying the full price of American Military Power (STOU address) All this NATO talk about military spending, an attack on one is an attack on all BS is comical.

Seeing the back and forth and juggling of Polish airforce and US Airforce and the closing of the door on transferring the jets is the type of BS talk that Putin doesn't do. Everybody passing the buck and scared of their own shadow is exactly what Putin was expecting.

Like I said before, some leaders in history are spineless and other's make the decisions to get their message and their issue across.

Everybody sitting back and worried about the perception of escalating this war while Putin is actually escalating the assault and the war. Bombing children's hospitals and having huge numbers of Ukrainian military assisting the dead and wounded? Sure, why not? Who's going to stop us?

Slaughter is met with slaughter and when the levels of atrocities from Russia escalate to untold levels, maybe the worlds powers can than quit stroking each other off and maybe deal with the aggressor who is having trouble fueling his offensive.

At any given time, there are a dozen or more wars going on in the world. Some recent and ongoing examples: Afghanistan, Ethiopia, Mali, Syria, Yemen. In every one thousands of civilians a year are being killed. We intervene in few of them.

Ukraine is different because it involves a great power, it’s in Europe, most of the people dying are white, and it’s all being captured on social media. Which is why it has such a high profile, and why extraordinary aid is being delivered to Ukraine and extraordinary sanctions are being imposed on Russia.

This is the West getting tough with an aggressor. If you want to see a lack of action and pushback, consider the Boko Haram insurgency in Western Africa (385,000 dead and counting) or the Yemeni Crisis (377,000 dead so far). The latter is the work of our pals in Saudi Arabia.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I really do not know what you are confused about. The USA contributing fighter jets - either directly or indirectly - is a clear provocation to Russia and it's totally understandable why they wouldn't want to take that step to escalate tensions beyond where they already are. In terms of defending NATO, they've been very clear and consistent: you don't attack NATO. Well, NATO hasn't been attacked.

It's as if you've somehow come to think that "Russia doing horrible things and committing war crimes" must be something that results in NATO going in and stopping them from doing those things. This fundamentally misunderstands the purpose of NATO. NATO is a defensive military pact. It is not a global police organization. It does not prevent, or respond to, war crimes. It does not keep the peace or intervene to stop conflicts once they've started. It's essentially a promise that if you attack someone in NATO, you will be vaporized, potentially along with the rest of humanity... so don't do it.

And, since vaporizing all of humanity is a very big thing to threaten, the "trip wire" that causes that result needs to be very clear and very simple: do not attack NATO countries. There's no "well, maybe if you attack someone who isn't in NATO we'll still respond, but maybe not, and maybe if you commit war crimes, and they're bad enough, and it's all over the news, then we'll intervene". No. It's simple: we only act if you attack us.

So again - with all of that in mind - what exactly is it about NATO's behaviour to date that you find confusing?

What is perplexing and actually inpowers Putin is this.

Poland is willing and ready to support Ukraine with fighter jet's because they want to assist but this crisis is having a disproportional effect on them with the Refugee's. In order for that to happen, they want assurances from NATO and the US specifically for additional backfilling of jet's but also assurances that Poland will be protected. The US was firmly on board with this according to them. The situation changed when Poland, perhaps feeling a little uneasy at the entire situation, despite US backing, changed the game. They now want to loan the Mig's to the US, who can than loan them directly to Ukraine.

US analysts have now concluded that this arrangement is now deemed too risky for the US, but not for NATO ally Poland.

So what I, as someone who is not privy to conversations and knows very little is this is a little hot potato on this issue. Relationships, wither they are personal or NATO or whatever are rarely tested to the point of no return.

Would NATO member Turkey, who's leader is a big fan of Putin's and has decided to not send weapons to arm the Ukrainian's directly post invasion, would they really get involved if Russia hit Poland for loaning jet's? Or would they just say this is BS, you bozo's figure it out. Our economy is collapsing and our buddy is Putin?

If Poland is convinced that NATO and the US would provide the highest level of protection and support in the chance they were hit for lending jet's, they wouldn't be looking around for backing from the US.

I have zero doubt that if Russia hit the US with something militarily that they would respond with force, I just don't see some NATO members getting involved if one of them get's attacked. Put their hand up and say not our problem or our fight. Perhaps one of the reasons why NATO hasn't granted Ukraine membership as they didn't want the headaches. Bottom line, outside of the US, NATO is probably fractured.

[PeteMoss]

Also - you can almost guarantee that Putin wouldn't have gone forward with this if he knew how it was going to turn out. His military looks awful, he's losing a bunch of people, a ton of equipment, his country has been sanctioned back to the 1970s, the US is preferring to get oil from Iran and Venezuela over Russia and the EU is trying to cutback 2/3rds of its energy imports by the end of the year. Its not like Putin is coming out of this with a big W if Nato doesn't get involved militarily.

[jammies]

There's nothing wrong with being angry about Russia's actions in Ukraine as a private citizen, and pressuring our governments to do as much as they realistically can to prevent Russia from gaining anything from their actions. However, sending in troops to help the Ukrainians is not realistic, and would be counter-productive even if Putin backed down and didn't start launching a few tactical nukes. On the list of things that would confirm Russia's fears about the West planning to destroy them, NATO soldiers directly fighting against them would only be second to an actual invasion of their territory.

Political leaders cannot act from emotion, they must be pragmatic. So far, and surprisingly, there has been an unanimity of purposeful action that has undoubtedly gone far beyond what Putin expected and beyond what he and his advisors had calculated could be borne to justify war as a net gain for Russia. It's only been a couple of weeks - let the consequences of what has been done play out before declaring failure. This is real, not some theoretical war game where you get to reset the board if your strategy ends up killing billions.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

This is the West getting tough with an aggressor. If you want to see a lack of action and pushback, consider the Boko Haram insurgency in Western Africa (385,000 dead and counting) or the Yemeni Crisis (377,000 dead so far). The latter is the work of our pals in Saudi Arabia.

Not only has the West not pushed back against the war in Yemen, it has largely supported (and at times directly assisted) the actions there that have led to hundreds of thousands of deaths, including tens of thousands of children dying of starvation as a result of the conflict.

[Firebot]

@curves2000 you really need to read up on what NATO is and what NATO is not.

There are very strict rules on how a country can join NATO, and Ukraine does not qualify.

And since when is Erdogan a fan of Putin? Have you not being paying attention? Turkey and Russia have been mortal enemies since...forever. And Turkey has been part of NATO since 1952.

[Firebot]

And Turkey has been one of Ukraine's biggest supporters in sending much needed drones post invasion, while simultaneously refusing Russians access to the Black Sea and that violation of this would invoke Article 5.

https://www.thenationalnews.com/worl...russia-crisis/

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Also - you can almost guarantee that Putin wouldn't have gone forward with this if he knew how it was going to turn out. His military looks awful, he's losing a bunch of people, a ton of equipment, his country has been sanctioned back to the 1970s, the US is preferring to get oil from Iran and Venezuela over Russia and the EU is trying to cutback 2/3rds of its energy imports by the end of the year. Its not like Putin is coming out of this with a big W if Nato doesn't get involved militarily.

IMO Putin's life is over. He either lives in a bunker surrounded by a personal military for the rest of his days or someone will kill him. He's ####ed up the lives of way too many powerful Russian people, let alone being a totally hated war criminal globally now.

[DownInFlames]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1501254688238362626

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by Firebot

@curves2000 you really need to read up on what NATO is and what NATO is not.

There are very strict rules on how a country can join NATO, and Ukraine does not qualify.

And since when is Erdogan a fan of Putin? Have you not being paying attention? Turkey and Russia have been mortal enemies since...forever. And Turkey has been part of NATO since 1952.

Putin and Erdogan share very similar ideologies, are both considered strong man, take no BS and rule with an iron first. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/29/w...ey-russia.html (paywall)

https://newlinesmag.com/essays/the-u...n-and-erdogan/

The countries and people may have very negative attitudes about each other but their relationship is concerning to many. On this issue, they are clearly on separate sides in a whole host of ways from a distance. Turkey is a NATO member but is one of the few to not really care what is happening, has not severed diplomatic ties with Russia, sent weapons post invasion and issued sanctions. They may have issued a statement regarding peace or something but that is about it.

Putin and Erdogan both want to restore their own countries to the previous glory or Russian and Ottoman Empire. I know its laughable but one of the few conflicts that is constantly arising is the tensions between Greece and Turkey. Erdogan has consistently used refugee's as pawns, violates Greek airspace and marine waters, has sent up military jet's to scare off the Greek PM's aircraft and continues to talk about the Greek islands and land he claims is stolen. In other wards, very Putin like.

I am getting off topic but my personal opinion is that NATO members aren't as aligned and willing to battle as some people think. I think some of that is evident but the back and forth on this Polish airforce issue and many more is evidence of this.

The more fractured the west and NATO becomes along with spineless organizations like the UN, the more some of these people like Putin are emboldened. The truth will be evident in the pudding when fractures occur with energy security as this war drags on, large corporations and big business start reopening business ties with Russia etc.

The low hanging fruit for a few weeks is one thing, shutting out an energy, military and economic country of 140 million people long term is another game.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by Firebot

And Turkey has been one of Ukraine's biggest supporters in sending much needed drones post invasion, while simultaneously refusing Russians access to the Black Sea and that violation of this would invoke Article 5.

https://www.thenationalnews.com/worl...russia-crisis/

This may have been a new development which I wasn't aware of in regards to military weapons post invasion. I know that Ukraine had been using Turkish made weapons prior to this as per previous purchases but new deliveries was something I wasn't aware of.

It's a complicated issue in other ways as well, I know US forces and NATO were concerned with Russian made anti aircraft systems being purchased by Turkey to the point where Turkey was kicked out of the F35 program amongst other issues.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019...-f-35-program/

Either way if the Turkish made drones are of big support, I am glad that they are arriving and providing cover to Ukrainian forces. I don't like Turkey one bit but support this move.

[Flamescuprun2018]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

At times it can be tempting to lose faith in humanity. But people like you are the reason why I never will. You truly are a hero. Thank you, Huntingwhale, and Huntingwhale's better half for being an inspiration to us all!

Well said! Big Kudos to Legoman rising above all this horror and assisting. Super impressive.

Huntingwhale: your posts brought the war home to us all. So glad to see the situation has improved. Wish health and safety for those family and friends remaining in Ukraine.

[Pacem]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I have zero doubt that if Russia hit the US with something militarily that they would respond with force, I just don't see some NATO members getting involved if one of them get's attacked. Put their hand up and say not our problem or our fight. Perhaps one of the reasons why NATO hasn't granted Ukraine membership as they didn't want the headaches. Bottom line, outside of the US, NATO is probably fractured.

This has never been tested but I think your assumption is wrong. You attack one NATO country you're attacking them all, USA included.