Israel declares war on Hamas

[Leondros]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Agree to disagree.
Like comparing a shooting and stabbing murder. They're both repulsive acts.

Raping, parading naked women in the streets, killing families infront of one another. If you can’t differentiate between the two, I’m calling you a monster.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

The response is the fact that the blockade didn't come into being until after Hamas took control. Israel was also withdrawing in steps, as they feared increased militancy from the e areas they withdrew from. At best, the argument is that both sides are in the wrong. The idea that violence is a response to Israel's policies is just wrong. Hamas specifically states over and over that violence is their response to Israel's existence.

Your identity in this thread is wrapped around not acknowledging or understanding the violence and impact of Israel's policies. That's why you think the violence is asymmetric here and why you're so invested in trying to show who ostensibly was violent first. In reality all that is happening is violence begetting more violence.


Many posters in this thread have repeatedly acknowledged Hamas's violence and why it has to stop. I acknowledge it unequivocally and without reservation.


Do you acknowledge Israel's violence unequivocally and without reservation?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Your identity in this thread is wrapped around not acknowledging or understanding the violence and impact of Israel's policies. That's why you think the violence is asymmetric here and why you're so invested in trying to show who ostensibly was violent first. In reality all that is happening is violence begetting more violence.


Many posters in this thread have repeatedly acknowledged Hamas's violence and why it has to stop. I acknowledge it unequivocally and without reservation.


Do you acknowledge Israel's violence unequivocally and without reservation?

Hamas literally runs the schools and mosques. They train children to be martyrs from a young age. This isn't a case of disgruntled youth joining Hamas. It's a case of indoctrination. It's not a cycle.

Of course Israel is violent. The question is whether if Israel standing down would be an effective way to deal with Hamas, and other terrorist groups. Thus far, withdrawing hasn't gotten Israel anywhere. As long as Hamas is training children to be militants the only way to deal with Hamas is to contain them or take them out.

Hamas isn't going to wake to one day and say Israel is playing nice let's be nice too. They have not been shy about their goal, which is the annihilation of Israel. They've stated that any olive branch will be used as a method to rearm and create more attacks.

Even if somehow they did convince Hamas to be nice guys, that still doesn't solve the Iran issue. Iran would find some other nasty group to attack Israel. Theocratic governments like Iran cannot exist without an enemy. They need the conflict to exist.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Agree to disagree.
Like comparing a shooting and stabbing murder. They're both repulsive acts.

Do you consider all of the dozen or so wars going on today where civilians are being killed to be murderous, repulsive acts? Or is there something about this war that makes it stand out to you?

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

And the violence being used to wipe out Hamas will just... bring on more violence.

Okay we agree:

1. the present bombing is killing too many innocent people

2. Hamas should be eliminated

3. Israel should be divided into 2 countries i.e. Israel and Palestine

Let's just pretend you have the authority of Netanyahu. What would you do from here?

Serious question

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Okay we agree:

1. the present bombing is killing too many innocent people

2. Hamas should be eliminated

3. Israel should be divided into 2 countries i.e. Israel and Palestine

Let's just pretend you have the authority of Netanyahu. What would you do from here?

Serious question

I don't know if it should be one country or two, and really that's not for me to decide.


And please don't make me Netanyahu.


I think the first step needs to be mutual acknowledgment that both peoples have rights to sovereignty and self-determination regardless of which state they live in. That includes safety for Israelis in current 'Palestinian' territory and safety for Palestinians in current 'Israeli' territory. That safety involves the removal of armed forces who administer de facto discriminatory policies.



Israel, through its US ally, can absolutely support Palestinian sovereignty in Gaza and mixed sovereignty in the West Bank by advocating for strong economic help to establish infrastructure and centers of economic activity. Those dollars will go way further than dollars spent on munitions.


The only way you're going to have lasting peace in the region is to first promote mutual reconciliation.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by blankall

Hamas literally runs the schools and mosques. They train children to be martyrs from a young age. This isn't a case of disgruntled youth joining Hamas. It's a case of indoctrination. It's not a cycle.

Of course Israel is violent. The question is whether if Israel standing down would be an effective way to deal with Hamas, and other terrorist groups. Thus far, withdrawing hasn't gotten Israel anywhere. As long as Hamas is training children to be militants the only way to deal with Hamas is to contain them or take them out.

Israeli settlers literally run schools and synagogues. They train their children to be religious from a young age. This isn't a case of free youth choosing to join Judaism. It's a case of indoctrination.


Of course Hamas is violent. The question is whether if Hamas standing down would be an effective way to deal with Israel, and its settlers. Thus far, it hasn't gotten the Palestinians anywhere. As long as Israel is supporting settlers to claim land in the West Bank either through violence or 'administrative' means, the only way to deal with them is to contain them or take them out.




(I hope you've seen what I did there. The sort of one-sided reasoning you put forth here will never solve anything.)

[blankall]

Also where are we getting this idea that pacifism is always the answer. We are literally celebrating a national holiday this long weekend about how a military response was necessary to deal with fanatical murderous tyrants.

Israel could have definitely done many things in the past differently to not have Hamas come into being. However, now that Hamas exists, how is pacifism going to deal with them?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Here is Lord Balfour himself:

You claim that Israel is not a legit state, because previous inhabitants of its lands were not consulted? You can make the same argument about many other countries. Including Palestine actually. They conquered Jerusalem and the whole area from the river to the see. They did not consult previous inhabitants. Gaza is not Arabian city originally and neither is Jerusalem.

The very idea that you can wipe an existing state off the map because of some historical reasons needs to die. Otherwise we will all sink in constant wars. All attempts to redraw borders should be banned. It's a root of all evil.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Israeli settlers literally run schools and synagogues. They train their children to be religious from a young age. This isn't a case of free youth choosing to join Judaism. It's a case of indoctrination.


Of course Hamas is violent. The question is whether if Hamas standing down would be an effective way to deal with Israel, and its settlers. Thus far, it hasn't gotten the Palestinians anywhere. As long as Israel is supporting settlers to claim land in the West Bank either through violence or 'administrative' means, the only way to deal with them is to contain them or take them out.




(I hope you've seen what I did there. The sort of one-sided reasoning you put forth here will never solve anything.)

The settlers didn't create Hamas. With or without the settlers Israel had to deal with Hamas. Israel had also offered the Palestinians an independent state, that have them 97 and 95% of the West Bank with land swaps, just prior to Hamas taking over Gaza. They also withdrew settlers from Gaza and several parts of the West Bank just prior to Hamas taking over.

If anything increased settlements are a response to Hamas. With no hope of peace, Israelis turn to unilateral steps, which includes creating a buffer around Tel Aviv.

I disagree strongly with any settlers outside of the Jerusalem area. However, they certainly didn't cause Hamas to come into being.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

And the violence being used to wipe out Hamas will just... bring on more violence.

Did wiping out ISIS bring more violence? Or wiping out Nazis? Or wiping out indians?

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Israeli settlers literally run schools and synagogues. They train their children to be religious from a young age. This isn't a case of free youth choosing to join Judaism. It's a case of indoctrination.


Of course Hamas is violent. The question is whether if Hamas standing down would be an effective way to deal with Israel, and its settlers. Thus far, it hasn't gotten the Palestinians anywhere. As long as Israel is supporting settlers to claim land in the West Bank either through violence or 'administrative' means, the only way to deal with them is to contain them or take them out.




(I hope you've seen what I did there. The sort of one-sided reasoning you put forth here will never solve anything.)

What you did here is bringing the argument to another place (West Bank) or another time (Belfour's letter). Because arguing about current war in Gaza is absolutely losing argument for Palestinians.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Pointman

You claim that Israel is not a legit state, because previous inhabitants of its lands were not consulted? You can make the same argument about many other countries. Including Palestine actually. They conquered Jerusalem and the whole area from the river to the see. They did not consult previous inhabitants. Gaza is not Arabian city originally and neither is Jerusalem.

The very idea that you can wipe an existing state off the map because of some historical reasons needs to die. Otherwise we will all sink in constant wars. All attempts to redraw borders should be banned. It's a root of all evil.

I said nothing of the sort. The rest of your post is just words arguing with someone, but none of it relates to what I've written here.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Did wiping out ISIS bring more violence? Or wiping out Nazis? Or wiping out indians?

You have got to be kidding me.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

I don't know if it should be one country or two, and really that's not for me to decide.


And please don't make me Netanyahu.


I think the first step needs to be mutual acknowledgment that both peoples have rights to sovereignty and self-determination regardless of which state they live in. That includes safety for Israelis in current 'Palestinian' territory and safety for Palestinians in current 'Israeli' territory. That safety involves the removal of armed forces who administer de facto discriminatory policies.



Israel, through its US ally, can absolutely support Palestinian sovereignty in Gaza and mixed sovereignty in the West Bank by advocating for strong economic help to establish infrastructure and centers of economic activity. Those dollars will go way further than dollars spent on munitions.


The only way you're going to have lasting peace in the region is to first promote mutual reconciliation.

First, I am not making you Netanyahu, I'm only giving you his authority.

I agree in principal that there should be a reconciliation between Israel and the Palestinians.

I think the way the world works, we enjoy our freedom and way of life because of our armed forces.

I agree that with the help of the US, we can protect Israel and Palestinian people and develop a strong economy for the benefit both parties. However, I don't see how that can be accomplished without munitions.

I guess, practically speaking at this point in time, as a first step I would call a ceasefire with acceptable terms for both sides. However, there is so much animosity between the parties, with all that has gone on in the past month or so, I am not optimistic that that is possible, and even if it could be accomplished, would hold for very long.

Anyway, thank you for your thoughts.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

You have got to be kidding me.

You need to come up with something stronger. Second-grader could say "You have got to be kidding me".

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Let me get this straight.

North American settlers killing scores of Native Americans through violence, displacing them from their lands, and practically wiping out their culture is a dispositive example of how violence will settle an issue.

I think you should go back and reeeeeeally think about your examples and what they imply about your intent.

[Manhattanboy]

Israel’s activities in Gaza stop immediately as soon as Hamas:

1 release all hostages
2 recognize Israel
3 lay down their arms
4 turn over their leaders for arrest and trial

Where are the demands? The silence is disheartening.

But ya Israel should unconditionally cease fire.

[Regorium]

Anyone want to talk about what's happening at Al Shifa?

Hamas is blocking fuel deliveries and preventing anyone from leaving through the provided safe corridor.

What should the next play be?

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

You have got to be kidding me.

What did he say that is wrong?

History has shown that violent people need to be brought to their knees in order to have peace, one example not talked about enough is the Empire of Japan, they marched thru China, Indonesia, Korean, Philippines, and Indochina killing upwards of 30 million people like savages on steroids, far more than the Nazis.

Today, the Japan is one of the most peaceful countries on earth.