Israel declares war on Hamas

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Azure

Fascinating to read the different perspectives on this conflict & the Ukraine War.

Ukraine should not negotiate with Russia for any reason even if hundreds of thousands more will continue to die.

&

Israel should lay down their arms and be be more peaceful.

The different outlook is amazing.

"Israel is intentionally targeting Palestinian civilians to kill them all."

but, Israel is letting trucks with aid into Gaza.

Something doesn't make sense.
But then again when your views line up with the same people who carry ISIS flags on the streets of Canada and openly scream and yell 'death to Jews', you know something is wrong.

But hey, Israel is the problem, amirite?
Pathetic.

To you? Shocking.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Did the enemies of the U.S. ever dig into a position as densely populated as Gaza?

I would think the closest comparison is the battle of Mosul, which left 10k civilians dead and almost 1 million displaced. That took place over 9 months, so civilians are being killed at a much faster rate in Gaza.

It is an exact comparison, but for some reason people think it should be different.

Entrenched suicidal group using civilians and civilian infrastructure as human shields.

The US and allies also tried to establish corridors to evacuate innocent civilians from Mosul, but thousands still died.

I guess that is because the US is evil and intentionally targeted them.

But we all know this is more about hatred of Israel and less about actually carrying about innocent civilians.

How many hundreds of thousands have been killed Yemen where the usual suspects never said a word? There were no protests in the streets, no 'death to SA' chants going on, nothing. Basically nobody cared.

But now? Damn Israel for defending itself. They should really lay down their guns, shut down the Iron Dome and let the rockets do their thing in the name of peace.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Azure

It is an exact comparison, but for some reason people think it should be different.

Entrenched suicidal group using civilians and civilian infrastructure as human shields.

The US and allies also tried to establish corridors to evacuate innocent civilians from Mosul, but thousands still died.

I guess that is because the US is evil and intentionally targeted them.

But we all know this is more about hatred of Israel and less about actually carrying about innocent civilians.

How many hundreds of thousands have been killed Yemen where the usual suspects never said a word? There were no protests in the streets, no 'death to SA' chants going on, nothing. Basically nobody cared.

But now? Damn Israel for defending itself. They should really lay down their guns, shut down the Iron Dome and let the rockets do their thing in the name of peace.

If it's an exact comparison, how do you explain civilians dying at about 10x the rate in Gaza vs Mosul? What did the US and Iraq do in Mosul that Israel isn't doing in Gaza to prevent civilian deaths?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by opendoor

If it's an exact comparison, how do you explain civilians dying at about 10x the rate in Gaza vs Mosul? What did the US and Iraq do in Mosul that Israel isn't doing in Gaza to prevent civilian deaths?

Took their time. Would most of the groups condemning Israel be fine if the IDF conducted a 9 month siege and military operation against Gaza that killed 10k people? Considering the protests began before Israel even launched its attacks, I’m doubtful.

Again, there’s also the matter of the where to evacuate the Palestinians to. The casualties in Mosul were lower because a million people left the area. The best way to safeguard the lives of civilians in a war zone is to get them out.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by opendoor

If it's an exact comparison, how do you explain civilians dying at about 10x the rate in Gaza vs Mosul? What did the US and Iraq do in Mosul that Israel isn't doing in Gaza to prevent civilian deaths?

As Cliff says, one big reason is the US was able to take their time.

Also, civilians in Mosul were far more motivated to get out. Hamas has a lot of support in Gaza, and given the time they have had to entrench themselves, it isn't hard to understand why less civilians would leave, and any kind of action by Israel will result in more casualties.

But to not be able to differentiate between Israel ending up killing innocent civilians because of the situation on the ground in Gaza, and thinking they are intentionally killing civilians just speaks to ignorance to the situation on the ground as I mentioned above, and quite frankly is only being said because someone is not willing to admit that Hamas shares a massive portion of the blame, and THEIR actions are leading to innocent civilian death. Just like the actions of ISIS lead to innocent civilian deaths, even if those deaths were at the hands of US attacks.

Which of course isn't surprising, because the same people out there claiming Israel is intentionally killing innocents people are likely the same people marching in the streets of Toronto carrying ISIS flags and shouting death to all Jews. And for some reason Canada and the West hasn't woken up to this reality, and isn't deporting these people back to where they came from ASAP.

I guess we'll wait until they go from terrorist supporters marching in the streets, to actual terrorists carrying out acts of terrorism, and THEN we'll sit and wonder how did it ever get to this.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Took their time. Would most of the groups condemning Israel be fine if the IDF conducted a 9 month siege and military operation against Gaza that killed 10k people? Considering the protests began before Israel even launched its attacks, I’m doubtful.

I would hope minimizing civilian casualties would enter the calculus just on its own merit, even if the people who hate Israel would've protested either way. Like, for all that's wrong about the US military and their foreign policy, their doctrine is to do whatever they can to avoid directly killing civilians, even though a good chunk of the world is still going to hate what they're doing. And they do that even when it makes achieving the objective significantly harder (or even impossible).

Again, there’s also the matter of the where to evacuate the Palestinians to. The casualties in Mosul were lower because a million people left the area. The best way to safeguard the lives of civilians in a war zone is to get them out.

Well they didn't even seem to consider that, which is a big part of the problem. They gave 24 hrs notice to a million people to move out of Northern Gaza. If they at least appeared to make a good faith effort to avoid humanitarian concerns, then they probably wouldn't have their allies publicly criticizing them or the US pressuring them to change their approach. If after considerable time and effort they were unable to get civilians to evacuate safely, then OK they need to move forward. But they didn't even seem to give a token effort.

Yes, this situation is more complicated than a lot of others, but a good part of that complication is resulting from Israel's own actions. People don't want to leave Gaza because they're worried they'll never be able to return if they do. And Israel's consistent encroachment in the West Bank along with some of the rhetoric coming out from the extremist base that supports the current Israeli government doesn't give anyone a whole lot of reason to question that.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by opendoor

If it's an exact comparison, how do you explain civilians dying at about 10x the rate in Gaza vs Mosul? What did the US and Iraq do in Mosul that Israel isn't doing in Gaza to prevent civilian deaths?

The US decided to invade a much much less heavily populated area that isnt constrained on one side by an ocean and on all the other sides by closed international borders, the people of Mosul could and did in their hundreds of thousands, leave

[Azure]

The US often killed innocent civilians with drone attacks because they wanted their target more than they carried about who was with him, to the point where it became far too easy and resulted in generations of people growing up hating the Americans. Didn't see people marching in the streets of Toronto waving ISIS flags and yelling death to all Americans though, or the usual people on here claiming the US was doing it intentionally to maximize civilian casualties.

We can argue about Israel's complicit behavior that breeds the hatred they are now dealing with, and I judging by your posts on this subject I would agree with lots that you say opendoor.

But when it comes to dealing with terrorists, Israel SHOULD be responding in force, with deathly precision and intention to eradicate every single member of Hamas.

Just like the US and others dealt with ISIS.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Azure

The US often killed innocent civilians with drone attacks because they wanted their target more than they carried about who was with him, to the point where it became far too easy and resulted in generations of people growing up hating the Americans. Didn't see people marching in the streets of Toronto waving ISIS flags and yelling death to all Americans though, or the usual people on here claiming the US was doing it intentionally to maximize civilian casualties.

Because the scale is pretty different. The Bureau of Investigative Journalism estimated that over 16 years of US drone and air strikes in Afghanistan, Somalia, Pakistan, and Yemen between 2004 and 2020, about 1-2K civilians were killed, including 300-450 children. They also estimated that the ratio of militants to civilians was about 10:1. That's really not comparable to what has happened in Gaza, even in just a month. If Israel was killing 1 civilian for every 10 Hamas fighters they killed, there would be no reasonable criticism. But that's not what's happening.

We can argue about Israel's complicit behavior that breeds the hatred they are now dealing with, and I judging by your posts on this subject I would agree with lots that you say opendoor.

But when it comes to dealing with terrorists, Israel SHOULD be responding in force, with deathly precision and intention to eradicate every single member of Hamas.

Just like the US and others dealt with ISIS.

Yes, the dismantling of Hamas and killing anyone connected with the attack is totally a legitimate goal. But as with all terrorism, they need to tread carefully to prevent exacerbating the issue in the long term. And given that Hamas has been known to recruit a lot of their fighters from orphans whose parents have been killed by Israel, even if we completely ignore humanitarian concerns, I'm not particularly optimistic that the way they're going about it is going to help their security in the long term.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Azure

"Israel is intentionally targeting Palestinian civilians to kill them all."

but, Israel is letting trucks with aid into Gaza.
is
Something doesn't make sense.

I know. Baffling isn't it?
Next thing they'll be accusing Israel of killing babies in their incubators whilst ignoring that they might be allowing the civilians some water.

The trucks make everything all right.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Yes, the dismantling of Hamas and killing anyone connected with the attack is totally a legitimate goal. But as with all terrorism, they need to tread carefully to prevent exacerbating the issue in the long term.

Yes, everyone knows there is a perfect, optimal number of humans to kill in order for the message to get through and be accepted. One human more or one human less means that message isn’t understood.

Great thought process. 12/10.

[Pointman]

Somehow nobody talks about Hamas bombing Israel civilians every day. There were 13 red alerts in Israel yesterday alone, and there has been a dozen or two on any given day of the war. Rocket barriages are flying into Israel cities basically every two hours. They all are targeting civilians, although the word "targeting" may give too much credit to Hamas's marksmanship. Those attacks typically don't cause any harm only because of the iron dome. Still, nobody is demanding Hamas to stop it.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Somehow nobody talks about Hamas bombing Israel civilians every day. There were 13 red alerts in Israel yesterday alone, and there has been a dozen or two on any given day of the war. Rocket barriages are flying into Israel cities basically every two hours. They all are targeting civilians, although the word "targeting" may give too much credit to Hamas's marksmanship. Those attacks typically don't cause any harm only because of the iron dome. Still, nobody is demanding Hamas to stop it.

No one is talking about Israeli settlers continuously firing at and kicking people out of their homes in the West bank year in and year out. Fun game.

The whole 'why is the other side ignoring this' stuff is played out. Bottom line is that humans are murdering each other and there are a lot of people trying to justify and rationalize what is an acceptable amount of murder.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Somehow nobody talks about Hamas bombing Israel civilians every day. There were 13 red alerts in Israel yesterday alone, and there has been a dozen or two on any given day of the war. Rocket barriages are flying into Israel cities basically every two hours. They all are targeting civilians, although the word "targeting" may give too much credit to Hamas's marksmanship. Those attacks typically don't cause any harm only because of the iron dome. Still, nobody is demanding Hamas to stop it.

I believe the continuous rocket attacks by Hamas, after the horrendous attack on the Israelis, has a lot to do with the early reaction of Israel to act quickly and decisively with the bombing in Gaza. In addition I believe the taking of hostages, and the lack of empathy from the Palestinians and other members of the Arab world played a part.

[Bagor]

One child killed in Gaza every 10 minutes on average, says WHO chief

https://www.theguardian.com/world/vi...ho-chief-video

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I believe the continuous rocket attacks by Hamas, after the horrendous attack on the Israelis, has a lot to do with the early reaction of Israel to act quickly and decisively with the bombing in Gaza. In addition I believe the taking of hostages, and the lack of empathy from the Palestinians and other members of the Arab world played a part.

Even if there was a cease fire, I would give Hamas very little time before more rockets were launched, violating the ceasefire. Rockets were just a daily part of life for Israelis even before October 7th. They just learned to live with it.

All these countries demanding a ceasefire should actually be demanding a release of all the hostages and a surrender or Hamas. If that happened, they would get a ceasefire. None of the demands for a ceasefire include any conditions for Hamas.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

No one is talking about Israeli settlers continuously firing at and kicking people out of their homes in the West bank year in and year out. Fun game.

The whole 'why is the other side ignoring this' stuff is played out. Bottom line is that humans are murdering each other and there are a lot of people trying to justify and rationalize what is an acceptable amount of murder.

I guess, I didn't make the point clear. Let's say, Israel agrees on ceasefire. Two hours later Hamas fires a rocket into Israel, thus obviously breaking ceasefire. Now what?

[Pointman]

The next rocket from Gaza into Israeli village of Nahal Oz flew just 15 minutes after my previous post. Ceasefire is a fantasy.

[Language]

Is everybody just ignoring the fact that Hamas has very explicitly and clearly come out, multiple times, since Oct 7th, to matter of fact state that they would

1) repeat the Oct 7th massacre over and over if given the chance
2) has no intention of governing the Strip in a way that enhances the life of the Palestinians
3) clearly has diverted billions in funds for creation of tunnels for themselves, and states that it’s the UN and Israeli responsibility for Palestinian civilian life
4) initiated the Oct 7th attacks to sow division in the normalization process that was going on between Israeli and other Arab states.

These are terrorists, plain as day, and self admitted. They are no longer a political movement where ceasefires can and should be negotiated, nor respected. The only way for Israel to “win”, and protect their own citizen’s lives in the future, is to eradicate Hamas. Talk of ceasefire is laughable and cynical at best.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by Language

Is everybody just ignoring the fact that Hamas has very explicitly and clearly come out, multiple times, since Oct 7th, to matter of fact state that they would

1) repeat the Oct 7th massacre over and over if given the chance
2) has no intention of governing the Strip in a way that enhances the life of the Palestinians
3) clearly has diverted billions in funds for creation of tunnels for themselves, and states that it’s the UN and Israeli responsibility for Palestinian civilian life
4) initiated the Oct 7th attacks to sow division in the normalization process that was going on between Israeli and other Arab states.

These are terrorists, plain as day, and self admitted. They are no longer a political movement where ceasefires can and should be negotiated, nor respected. The only way for Israel to “win”, and protect their own citizen’s lives in the future, is to eradicate Hamas. Talk of ceasefire is laughable and cynical at best.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is all true. I think the issue many people have with the Israeli response is that they feel it could be more targeted so less civilians are killed. But the only way that I can see a more targeted response is more infantry and less bombing. But that means more Israeli soldiers dead. On the one hand, it's their job to assume this type of risk in the military. On the other hand, they are all conscripted. Furthermore, it's hard to justify to the Israeli people why you put their sons and daughters in peril when you could just bomb your enemy, especially when that enemy specifically targets civilians and literally wants to murder every Israeli.