2021/2022 Trade Speculation and Rumours

[chedder]

If the no plan comments are directed at me, I didn't say no plan. I said no plan b. Ie. The plan is to ride this core to the bitter end good or bad. At which point they'll be forced to go scorched earth on rebuild. As for the smartest guy comment, I agree how it comes across but it's how many of us fans see Treliving. A manager that makes the occasional good move but then follows up with several head scratchers.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Shazam

There's a thing about being that age.

A 12 year old might not actually spend to the cap just for the sake of spending.

I do remember at that age watching games, clearly understanding which players were awful.

Depends on their maturity level.

Tre does a very good job of rationalizing his decisions. You (yes, you, Bingo) think rationalizations justify decisions. A bad decision is still a bad decision regardless.

So you're doubling down on the brilliant grade school comment.

Good on you.

You don't see challenges in this market that might impede his ability to make a trade of a core piece?

Don't confuse having a differing opinion than Mr Drive By as rationalizing.

We should have snapped you up when you were 12 from what you're saying, sounds like you were an emerging hockey executive. Where are you now? Did you let it slide?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Other teams played in a bubble and without fans

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Bingo

So you're doubling down on the brilliant grade school comment.

Good on you.

You don't see challenges in this market that might impede his ability to make a trade of a core piece?

Don't confuse having a differing opinion than Mr Drive By as rationalizing.

We should have snapped you up when you were 12 from what you're saying, sounds like you were an emerging hockey executive. Where are you now? Did you let it slide?

Not a good look for the owner to be consistently sliding into petty fights. Take the bolded, no more mature than the comment you were initially mad about.

It's virtually impossible to become a hockey executive without existing ties to the "brotherhood."

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Other teams played in a bubble and without fans

Really?

That changes my entire thought process, why didn't you point this out sooner?

I was honestly convinced that every other team had fans in the stands and full revenue.

Let me reconsider some of my thoughts and I'll get back to you.

You're sure right?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Really?

That changes my entire thought process, why didn't you point this out sooner?

I was honestly convinced that every other team had fans in the stands and full revenue.

Let me reconsider some of my thoughts and I'll get back to you.

You're sure right?

Other teams had GMs making moves too. Some of them made the playoffs. One even won the Cup!

Lots of excuses for the grinder GM accomplishing nothing here

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Not a good look for the owner to be consistently sliding into petty fights. Take the bolded, no more mature than the comment you were initially mad about.

It's virtually impossible to become a hockey executive without existing ties to the "brotherhood."

Thanks for your opinion.

Noted.

If he's going to do drive bys I'm certainly able to point out how silly they are. He doubled down so I took his direction. Certainly didn't start with me.

I'm not even a moderator, and I started this thing 20 years ago because Flames fans needed a place to talk hockey.

Are you saying that forfeited my right to point out silliness my providing the venue to be silly?

Don't think so.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Other teams had GMs making moves too. Some of them made the playoffs. One even won the Cup!

Lots of excuses for the grinder GM accomplishing nothing here

Excuses are either made up and used to protect, or actual limitations.

A cap world hurts every team.
Monahan's injury hurts Calgary.
Gaudreau, Monahan and Tkachuk's production slide hurts Calgary.

Lots of deals out there for sure, and some at prices that seemed silly. Calgary didn't go that far, and you can certainly disagree with that, but it doesn't make easily quantifiable reasons for why moving core pieces were difficult any less obvious.

[GioforPM]

I think a lot of posters would be surprised at the "plan" they think good GMs actually have.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Excuses are either made up and used to protect, or actual limitations.

A cap world hurts every team.
Monahan's injury hurts Calgary.
Gaudreau, Monahan and Tkachuk's production slide hurts Calgary.

Lots of deals out there for sure, and some at prices that seemed silly. Calgary didn't go that far, and you can certainly disagree with that, but it doesn't make easily quantifiable reasons for why moving core pieces were difficult any less obvious.

Nothing is obvious or easy except for this -
The GM is responsible for the team’s roster and on ice performance. He says so himself

Now building up a ton of depth at C and not having right wingers, that’s on him. The coaching debacles. On him, too.

Couldn’t get fair market value for a core piece? Johnny had a sub par season. He got zero points in 135 minutes when Ritchie was inexplicable stapled to him. You think other GMs are looking at his season and willing to value him as high?

Being a GM is strategic as well as transactional. The challenges in his recent, short time frame game are exacerbated by his own poor performance in his longer term game

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Nothing is obvious or easy except for this -
The GM is responsible for the team’s roster and on ice performance. He says so himself

Now building up a ton of depth at C and not having right wingers, that’s on him. The coaching debacles. On him, too.

Couldn’t get fair market value for a core piece? Johnny had a sub par season. He got zero points in 135 minutes when Ritchie was inexplicable stapled to him. You think other GMs are looking at his season and willing to value him as high?

Being a GM is strategic as well as transactional. The challenges in his recent, short time frame game are exacerbated by his own poor performance in his longer term game

Nope ... I think the limitations I listed is obvious and easy to spot. That's why I said it.

You have proof that Monahan didn't actually have surgeries? That would be something else.

Hell I don't even have an issue if you want to say he should have taken anything (pennies on the dollar) to effect change. That's a way to go for sure.

But when you need to change a core that is waning it's not a huge leap to suggest you have to take a bath on a trade (option A) or ride it out and see if you can rebound their value (option B), both of which are in effect a plan.

Your Gaudreau comments are agreeing with me aren't they? His value is down. Sutter put him with Ritchie, not Treliving. Or do you think Sutter is the type to have Treliving set the roster and the lines?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Right. Okay. Yes, some things are obvious other than the fact that the GM is responsible for the team.

I certainly don’t disagree that Monahan was injured and had surgery. That would be absurd

We also agree that other GMs could likely value core pieces differently because of their down years. I agree with him not losing trades on assets devalued under his watch

I do not however give him a pass at all for assets being devalued under his watch

That’s one of the main problems

I mean if he accidentally handcuffed his wrists together and then couldn’t put on a good puppet show, I wouldn’t think he should get a pass for a poor puppet show

[bax]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Forget the cup, I think there is a very real chance that Columbus is better than the Flames this year. No question they have more talent in the pipeline for future years as well.

If people think that's an underperforming franchise, how can they even watch ours?

Really? What about that Columbus roster makes you think that?

Dom at the Athletic is currently doing his NHL previews starting from the bottom of his projected rankings and releasing 2 teams per day. He has Columbus finishing 28th in the league with a 64% probability of finishing last in their division.

Their top line center is Jack Roslovic.

They are now paying Werenski as if he is franchise player which he hasn’t shown yet and will no longer be playing with Jones.

The team is essentially missing an entire top line with Laine nosediving as he has been and their defense is very suspect.

I like Merzlikins, but I don’t think he’s an upgrade on Markstrom. They also have a rookie head coach. I would be extremely shocked if this team finished above the Flames. They were worse last year and sold off pieces.

Yeah the Flames aren’t one of the elite teams in the league, but they are firmly in the “mushy middle” like the majority of the league.

I think sometimes people only view the Flames in a vacuum and don’t realize just how bad some other teams are.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Thanks for your opinion.

Noted.

If he's going to do drive bys I'm certainly able to point out how silly they are. He doubled down so I took his direction. Certainly didn't start with me.

I'm not even a moderator, and I started this thing 20 years ago because Flames fans needed a place to talk hockey.

Are you saying that forfeited my right to point out silliness my providing the venue to be silly?

Don't think so.

In fact, you might be entitled to more silliness.

I would be.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Not a good look for the owner to be consistently sliding into petty fights. Take the bolded, no more mature than the comment you were initially mad about.

It's virtually impossible to become a hockey executive without existing ties to the "brotherhood."

Oh my god shut up about Bingo and the moderators already and let them post like anybody else.

This is far and away the most tired complaint on CP. So whiney.

[talladega.25]

Super off-topic but I have been following this forum for a decade and I just recently joined. I know the current time we live in is negatively impacting all of us from a wide ranging scale. Yet I have never seen so much dissension on here before. It is a common theme in all of the threads and it is becoming tiresome to read. We are here to chat and connect but this forum has gone south somewhat. There needs to be more positivity rather than negativity, I am hesitant to post anything because I don't want to deal any more negativity. I am proud to be a Flames fan and I am dying to talk hockey, I hope we all can rally around that and rally around each other. Discourse is the best but recently discourse has been replaced by negative banter. I wish you all well and I hope to be a supportive community member. -TK

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

You're always shooting off such empty platitudes. Highs and lows. LOL when was the last high for this franchise?

I am? Didn't realize you were paying such close attention. Any examples? Honestly, maybe I have been, but not to my recollection.

I guess you want me to say there has been no highs over the recent past and this team is not worth our attention? That, or they are hopeless losers destined to suck, and I should just revel in their, and my own, pity. Sounds appealing. Or maybe I will take satisfaction (not really) in arguing with strangers online about something none of us have any real skin in the game on. People like to point out to things like the Gaudreau contract situation and start running around with their hair on fire saying things like 'Treliving should be fired immediately' for things they have conjured up in their imagination that haven't even happened yet. It's hilarious. Whether you, or anyone, wants to acknowledge it or not, Treliving has a better understanding on what JG and his representation want and whether or not that is aligned with what the Flames want. Evidently they are willing to enter the final year of his contract without an extension signed. They probably have contemplated the scenario where; they sign him to an extension, they trade him, or they loose him this offseason as a UFA. I am certain they are aware of these scenarios and their implications better than we do. I think any person with two brain cells to rub together would have a plan, one way or the other, on how this plays out if they were in Treliving's shoes. So why do people like to think Treliving, and the Flames, don't? Do people think that no one in Flames management has any idea of what is going to happen? Please.

I thought 2014/15 was a high point, 2018/19 as well. I enjoyed watching those teams and the aftermath. I was pumped when the Flames acquired Hamilton. And I was pumped when they traded him the second time. I think there is a pretty good chance they rebound from last year and are a playoff team this year. I have been reasonably optimistic about the teams ability to be competitive at the start of the season for several years now. I don't think they are cup contenders, but I also acknowledge that it is much harder to be a good team turned to great, opposed to a weak team that is turned to good. Can they get to be cup contenders with the way this team in built and the assets they have? Don't know. It seems unlikely, but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. Sutter said he wanted to win a cup here. He knows more about this team and hockey than I do, or I assume you do. He must know something you or I or great majority of us don't. Or maybe he, like myself, is also just speaking in empty platitudes. But, why? He left the ranch and came back to coaching for that?

Generally speaking, I prefer to be optimistic about the team, otherwise what is the point in following them if they are going to be terrible at every corner they turn, or decision, they make. I understand that is the fashionable sentiment among many here these days, but I really don't think things are a bad as many like to think. And if they are and I am wrong, well, perhaps we get that rebuild many are clamoring for anyway.

[Phil Russell]

Originally Posted by talladega.25

Super off-topic but I have been following this forum for a decade and I just recently joined. I know the current time we live in is negatively impacting all of us from a wide ranging scale. Yet I have never seen so much dissension on here before. It is a common theme in all of the threads and it is becoming tiresome to read. We are here to chat and connect but this forum has gone south somewhat. There needs to be more positivity rather than negativity, I am hesitant to post anything because I don't want to deal any more negativity. I am proud to be a Flames fan and I am dying to talk hockey, I hope we all can rally around that and rally around each other. Discourse is the best but recently discourse has been replaced by negative banter. I wish you all well and I hope to be a supportive community member. -TK

Oh it is definitely the times we live in. There's a whole cohort who gets their jollies trying to own each other online, even polluting hockey boards with their self indulgent in-fighting and not caring that they are boring everyone else to death. I just skip over it and remind myself why I am here: for a little escape and entertainment. GO FLAMES!

[NegativeSpace]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Excuses are either made up and used to protect, or actual limitations.

A cap world hurts every team.
Monahan's injury hurts Calgary.
Gaudreau, Monahan and Tkachuk's production slide hurts Calgary.

Lots of deals out there for sure, and some at prices that seemed silly. Calgary didn't go that far, and you can certainly disagree with that, but it doesn't make easily quantifiable reasons for why moving core pieces were difficult any less obvious.

I enjoy your takes and consistently stop when I set you've posted, for what it is worth.



I go back to your past points on the difficulty of predicting future player progression. The team thought they had a collection of top-tier forwards and defense. I didn't disagree with the team's assessment after 2015/2016. The choice was whether to pull out of the rebuild and try to compete hoping that they have enough high tier forwards and a strong defence core. Turns out they were wrong on both options (odd that their forwards are not as top tier but I am worried about their defence construction more each day).



The Flames are at the end of the cycle and probably should cut bait with this crop of players (in my opinion), but we are seeing other teams making similar decisions: LA as an example. I'm sure there are others. People may have their opinions on LA doing so - was this the right time to pull the plug, should they maximize the time with Doughty and Kopitar, are their young prospects going to turn into front line players? If their crop of prospects turn out to be good but not great players, then this decision may be as warmly received as the Flames' decision in a few years. Byfield, for example, may be a top-five player in the NHL in the future or he could be a good player but not franchise altering (e.g. Jay Bouwmeester).



Probably confusing team management decisions are figuring out what is the outlier - the team that drafts high and loses or the team that is competitive but finds good players. People keep pointing to Tampa but many of their top players today are drafted outside of the first round whereas you have the Edmonton, Buffalo, Arizona, that seem to be constantly drafting high with very little to show for it.



At least in the last couple of years, I would say that the Flames have changed perspective from we need to support this core and will trade draft picks to do so (almost indiscriminately) to more caution about what kind of players they want to bring in and guarding their higher end draft picks. They seem to be straddling the middle road without actually making a call on this core.



Sorry for the rambling thoughts in any event.

[bdubbs]

Originally Posted by NegativeSpace

<snip>


Sorry for the rambling thoughts in any event.

I agree with your post. I'd rather rambling thoughts like this than silly drive-bys and general negativity.