Flames to announce plans to announce arena plans in the... future...

[homestand]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

This.

Bunk has made it clear ownership would be nuts to use west village due to the contamination and forcing the city to shift priorities away from the east village to some degree.

We all want it to be west village because that means the city gets massive, much needed road upgrades, but the Flames cannot bank on these being funded, and we would of heard of it by now if there were talks of funding.

A poster on here intimate with the new arena process 'thanked' a post by Bunk where he disputed the west village

West village is a red herring...

I think the "thanks" was in reference to timelines not location.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Nah, I do think it'll be West Village. I don't think the Flames will ever go on the Stampede grounds. Stampede would, I assume, want to share parking and concession revenue, which obviously the Flames do not.

I'd like to see a new arena. I hope they can make the numbers work for everyone.

Booo I thought I was being smart

[corporatejay]

I just hope it's not an arena for ants.

[drewtastic]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I just hope it's not an arena for ants.

If so, it will need to be...at least...3 times that size. (At least.)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[questionmotives]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Nah, I do think it'll be West Village. I don't think the Flames will ever go on the Stampede grounds. Stampede would, I assume, want to share parking and concession revenue, which obviously the Flames do not.

I'd like to see a new arena. I hope they can make the numbers work for everyone.

Just an honest question, but why would a Flames/Stampede partnership be so unattainable/out of the question? It would seem to benefit both parties in my opinion. Is sharing revenue the worst thing if it keeps the arena downtown and benefits both parties? More Stampede headline concerts, same accessible location to watch the Flames, on a currently existing LRT line, and the inevitability of imploding the Dome and rebuilding infrastructure in it's spot?

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by questionmotives

Not sure how much it has been discussed here (because I'm too lazy to read this whole thread), but I've heard from a reputable source that one of the leading ideas is to demo the Big Four building, drop the LRT underground at both Stampede Stations and build on the grounds.

Sounds like a good idea on the surface.

This was one of the earliest ideas that was out there, probably well before talk of a new arena was even being discussed on here. We did discuss this option a little bit over on Skyscraperpage. I think the plan would have been to eliminate both the Vic Park and Erlton station and just have the one stop inside the building proper on the Big 4 site.

I think it was a great idea, and could have also integrated 17th avenue into the park and stadium proper.

We did hear that the Stampede pushed back on the idea, the reason I heard was that they "needed" the Big 4 building for the big petroleum show every other year and were pushing back based on that. Stupid I know, but when it comes to the Stampede and their board it wouldn't surprise me.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by questionmotives

Just an honest question, but why would a Flames/Stampede partnership be so unattainable/out of the question? It would seem to benefit both parties in my opinion. Is sharing revenue the worst thing if it keeps the arena downtown and benefits both parties? More Stampede headline concerts, same accessible location to watch the Flames, on a currently existing LRT line, and the inevitability of imploding the Dome and rebuilding infrastructure in it's spot?

Originally Posted by Bigtime

This was one of the earliest ideas that was out there, probably well before talk of a new arena was even being discussed on here. We did discuss this option a little bit over on Skyscraperpage. I think the plan would have been to eliminate both the Vic Park and Erlton station and just have the one stop inside the building proper on the Big 4 site.

I think it was a great idea, and could have also integrated 17th avenue into the park and stadium proper.

We did hear that the Stampede pushed back on the idea, the reason I heard was that they "needed" the Big 4 building for the big petroleum show every other year and were pushing back based on that. Stupid I know, but when it comes to the Stampede and their board it wouldn't surprise me.

I think that the Big 4 location would have many benefits, but I honestly feel that it all comes down to one thing : control over parking revenue. I can't even imagine the amount that the Stampede makes from parking, and the Flames would love to have in their pockets. And at McMahon, the parking revenues go straight to the University.

I also think that, as mentioned earlier in the thread, that the scope changed a few years ago when the Flames bought the Stampeders. It makes a lot of sense to have both an arena and a stadium in close proximity, but I don't think that the Stampede can part with that much land.

Assuming, of course, that we're going to get an arena + stadium combo. But at this point I'd be surprised if it were anything less.

[bob-loblaw]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

This was one of the earliest ideas that was out there, probably well before talk of a new arena was even being discussed on here. We did discuss this option a little bit over on Skyscraperpage. I think the plan would have been to eliminate both the Vic Park and Erlton station and just have the one stop inside the building proper on the Big 4 site.

I think it was a great idea, and could have also integrated 17th avenue into the park and stadium proper.

We did hear that the Stampede pushed back on the idea, the reason I heard was that they "needed" the Big 4 building for the big petroleum show every other year and were pushing back based on that. Stupid I know, but when it comes to the Stampede and their board it wouldn't surprise me.

Wasn't the Big 4 building trashed pretty good during the floods? I thought it wasn't being used too much these days.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Do we dare tempt fate and change the thread title to "In the next few weeks?". Probably not, but if they don't announce something in the next few weeks maybe its time for this thread to go.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by bob-loblaw

Wasn't the Big 4 building trashed pretty good during the floods? I thought it wasn't being used too much these days.

I haven't been in the lower level since the flood but the upper level is still used quite frequently.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Europeans are a lot more willing to stand, and sing, and generally be engaged in sports events, so I can see standing areas working there. In North America, half the time we're too busy stuffing our face with nachos and beer to stand up for even a goal.

Absolutely. People in North America behave at sporting and music events pretty much like they're sitting at home watching a movie. They want to be comfortable, on their ass, with lots of food and drink available, and no annoying distractions like standing, singing, or cheering.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I haven't been in the lower level since the flood but the upper level is still used quite frequently.

From what I remember of the lower level, you could probably just pump the water out and it would be about the same as it was before. Fresh coat of paint? Do you have "Bow River sediment" on your colour swatch? Good. Done.

[lambeburger]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I haven't been in the lower level since the flood but the upper level is still used quite frequently.

Was at the Brier patch this week. The downstairs looks exactly like it did before the flood. Bare concrete and open space for events, not much more.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

Bunk has made it clear ownership would be nuts to use west village due to the contamination and forcing the city to shift priorities away from the east village to some degree.

You've got this wrong as you're assuming that any future use would have to "cleanup" the creosote. In fact a strategy of "containment" is also on the table. If the latter, then an arena, with surfaces like parking lots over the worst contaminated areas would actually be the best solution vs the more costly "cleanup" scenario that would be required if residential housing were to be put up.

As for using the Stampede grounds, it has one very large negative against it from the Flames's perspective - you'd have to share revenues with the Stampede Board. Why share when you can keep it all?

For those reasons, the West Villiage is hardly a 'red herring', though it does comes with it's challenges.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

This was one of the earliest ideas that was out there, probably well before talk of a new arena was even being discussed on here. We did discuss this option a little bit over on Skyscraperpage. I think the plan would have been to eliminate both the Vic Park and Erlton station and just have the one stop inside the building proper on the Big 4 site.

I think it was a great idea, and could have also integrated 17th avenue into the park and stadium proper.

We did hear that the Stampede pushed back on the idea, the reason I heard was that they "needed" the Big 4 building for the big petroleum show every other year and were pushing back based on that. Stupid I know, but when it comes to the Stampede and their board it wouldn't surprise me.

The Big 4 is such a bizarre building. Its useful I guess, but its also the most useless compared to the other buildings on the grounds because a lot of its uses are better in the round-up center anyway. I don't know if the Big 4 itself has a refigeration unit or if they brought one in, but I know that at one point in the 80's they held a curling event there. I was too young to realise what event or things like that, but I do remember seeing the sheets for whatever it was. Just so strange.

[Julio]

The Big Four site makes a lot of sense, and indeed was one of the early favourite spots from what I heard, but it would take out a huge chunk of prime land on Stampede Park. I think very early in this thread there were some Google Earth images on the amount of space a new arena (which would have a much bigger footprint than the Dome) would take out almost all the space from the C Train tracks to the main road that runs through Stampede Park.
Also, currently Stampede gets to program and control what goes into the Dome during Stampede, and (I think) get ticket revenue from that. That's a holdover from when Stampede operated the Saddledome. There is no way that would be a part of any new building, so Stampede wouldn't really gain financially in that way.

For the Flames it's simple...why have to deal with any outside party that you don't have to? Why give up any revenue stream that you want all to yourself. Revenue outside of tickets and hockey operations is the reason the Flames took over the Saddledome 20 years ago.
Personally, I would love to see the 'Remington lands' site that Bunk mentioned a few pages back. (Olympic Way and 10th Ave).

[Julio]

Originally Posted by Slava

The Big 4 is such a bizarre building. Its useful I guess, but its also the most useless compared to the other buildings on the grounds because a lot of its uses are better in the round-up center anyway. I don't know if the Big 4 itself has a refigeration unit or if they brought one in, but I know that at one point in the 80's they held a curling event there. I was too young to realise what event or things like that, but I do remember seeing the sheets for whatever it was. Just so strange.

Slava, the Big Four was built as a curling rink, and indeed was in Guinness as the largest in the world. Having it as display space for Stampede was an important but secondary use. The imprints for the hacks can still be seen in the floors.
I think in a perfect world the Big Four would have been condemned after the flood, and Stampede could have taken the insurance money to add another hall onto BMO Centre...but the damage wasn't that bad I guess. I do know that because of what it's original purpose was the building is it's very well built, and very durable, if not completely aesthetically pleasing.

[powderjunkie]

Concerning Stampede, the current CEO (Vern) is retiring, and being replaced by Warren Connell - the VP who was in charge of park development/expansion...most of which has gone quite well (new Ag building, BMO halls, river park, new bridge, etc.), though the retail development of Olympic Way/Stampede Trail never came to fruition. Vern was a CFO money guy...Warren is a big project development type guy (would also be a key stakeholder in any future Olympic bids).

A big thing Stampede was working towards was a 17th Ave underpass (under LRT) that would connect with Olympic Way in front of Saddledome. That could definitely be a project tied into the Big Four location...

[Barnes]

This total speculation...

powderjunkie's post has got me thinking. The Stampede has proven they are incapable of developing a ham and cheese sandwich. Sorry, but the BMO Centre is a terrible conference facility. The Ag building is fine and a bridge and park, whoopty do. They also failed at operating the Casino so I think The Stampede realizes this that major development of the park is not one of their core competencies outside things for 10 days in July.

The failed Stampede Trail development was to allow ADP to develop and lease the lands where the Stampede would be the landlord. When ADP failed to raise the capital they approached the Stampede to partner in the development and the Stampede walked away. This and having Penny Lane operating the casino and Cowboys tent, I think shows that they are very much in favour of allowing developers to build and operate properties for year round destination facilities on the grounds so they can sit back and let someone else and handle things other than rodeos and marching bands.

The Flames have been working behind the scenes to finalize plans. It is always said that they are doing it the right way but I honestly can't see a finalized plan of this scope being presented to the City a short time before going public if the planned locations where to be Fire Park, West Village, or north of the grounds. Any plans in these locations would require some involvement of the City and the Flames should at least be somewhat aware that it is the opinion of the City Council and public that no public money is available. Presenting a plan that requires anything of the city without consultation during the design process is not doing things the right way. Maybe it's typical? Things like CRLs etc would have to be at least discussed at some point one would think? I don't have any experience in this area so I may be wrong but this makes sense to me.

So, this gives us with three options?

1. The Flames announce plans to build on a downtown location and will pay for everything but will ask for infrastructure improvements.

2. The Flames announce plans to build on a downtown location and expect a CRL, tax incentives, infrastructure, and or land.

3. The Flames and Stampede have come to some sort of agreement that benefits both organizations and would realize a version of the Stampede's Master Plan.

I have always said that there's no way the Flames remain on the grounds but you have to think that the first two options would require some sort of discussion with the City. Maybe there's a fourth option and there has been discussions and agreements in principle secretly with the City but that could be terrible optics for council.

Maybe there's a fifth option where the plan is they expect the public and the city to be so wow'd by the project that will just figure out how to pay later which really is more of a dream then a plan.

If we are to assume Ken King is sincere and things have been done the "right way", in my non professional hypothesis maybe Stampede makes the most sense.

Muta, Bunk?

[Howie_16]

Not anything but a wild stab in the dark by me, but is there any chance that the Flames Sports and Enterainment conglomerate takes over the Stampede board, the Park and the running of the Stampede itself?!