Israel declares war on Hamas

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Do you regard information issued by the government of Russia and the government of Australia as equally credible? I mean, I’m sure they both lie. But does that mean we should throw up our hands and equivocate?

This is the kind of strawman you regularly pretend to be above. Interesting that this conflict has you succumbing to the same argumentative crutches you wail against most.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I didn’t say they’d never deliberately lie. But lies are a lot harder to sustain in democratic, liberal societies with an independent media.

Really? You live north of the biggest collective of liars that has possibly ever lied and they hold themselves up as the bastion of democracy, liberal society, and independent media, and you're going to trot out that load of bull? Classic CliffFletcher.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Do you regard information issued by the government of Russia and the government of Australia as equally credible? I mean, I’m sure they both lie. But does that mean we should throw up our hands and equivocate?

That's an interesting false equivalence you've attempted to build to sustain a flawed argument. Hamas is not Russia and Israel is not Australia. I would place both Hamas and Israel in the same class as Russia when it comes to stretching the truth and manipulating facts to suit their needs. What it means is we should remain skeptical of anything that comes from either Hamas or Israel because they both have earned the reputation of being full of #### and lying their collective asses off in an attempt to gain sympathy from the international community. Neither are credible because they both have a long and ugly history of lying.

[flamesfever]

nm

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

This is the kind of strawman you regularly pretend to be above. Interesting that this conflict has you succumbing to the same argumentative crutches you wail against most.

For someone who employs strawmen so readily, you don’t seem to understand what they are.

Not all analogies are strawmen.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

For someone who employs strawmen so readily, you don’t seem to understand what they are.

Not all analogies are strawmen.

Maybe you can do us a favour then and point on the doll where anybody was arguing Hamas and the Israeli government were “equally” trustworthy.

“an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.”

Or maybe you weren’t meaning to create a strawman and just don’t understand how to build a logical analogy that serves the purpose an analogy is supposed to serve. But, I’m guessing it’s the latter, because you had trouble responding to the idea that the Israeli government was untrustworthy in a straightforward manner.

You don’t always have to let your need to pretend you’re smarter than everyone get in the way of living up to the values and conduct you scream about constantly on here. It’s the primary reason why you don’t receive the level of respect in conversation you obviously feel entitled to, though I’m sure that’s yet another thing you blame on mods/other posters/society instead of doing any self reflection at all.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

…You don’t always have to let your need to pretend you’re smarter than everyone…

Quoted for its beauty.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Quoted for its beauty.

Surprised you have time to read my posts what with being so busy calling anyone you disagree with anti-semites

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Surprised you have time to read my posts what with being so busy calling anyone you disagree with anti-semites

Not everyone.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Not everyone.

Didn’t say everyone

[TheIronMaiden]

On the internet war isn't hell. War is petty.

[Sliver]

To our battle stations!

[PepsiFree]

Suit up, brigade

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Suit up, brigade

My brigade costume is a birthday suit, so I'm ready.

[flamesfever]

nm

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I didn't think the analogy was all that bad. If you equate Russia to Hamas, and Ukraine to Israel.

1. Russia and Hamas both started the war

2. Ukraine and Israel are fighting for their existence

3. The leaders of Russia and Hamas have become super wealthy, at the expense of the people they serve

4. Russia and Hamas have alliances with much larger bodies i.e. Russia with China and Hamas with Iran

5. Russia and Hamas are becoming or have become International pariahs

6. Etc.

But he didn’t equate Ukraine to Israel, he equated Australia to Israel.

Of course the analogy gets better if you change the analogy.

But regardless of that, analogies are meant to clarify or illuminate something through an altered perspective, and considering the thing he was trying to bring clarity to was the equality of the trustworthiness, which is a strawman of his own invention, it fails on both accounts.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

But he didn’t equate Ukraine to Israel, he equated Australia to Israel.

Of course the analogy gets better if you change the analogy.

But regardless of that, analogies are meant to clarify or illuminate something through an altered perspective, and considering the thing he was trying to bring clarity to was the equality of the trustworthiness, which is a strawman of his own invention, it fails on both accounts.

My mistake. I should have used my analogy with the war in Ukraine and the war in Israel to demonstrate who you should trust the most and why.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

My mistake. I should have used my analogy with the war in Ukraine and the war in Israel to demonstrate who you should trust the most and why.

Which would still serve no purpose, because the question of who to trust “most” isn’t a question anyone is asking, it’s whether either deserves the benefit of the doubt, which should be evaluated independently of the other.

Saying things like “I know who I would trust” is a fallacy, it creates the perception of a choice that doesn’t actually have to be made. If the Israeli government and Hamas release competing statements, all you’re doing is absolving yourself of the need to think critically if you say “well Hamas is less trustworthy, so I will trust the government and take their version as fact.” We’ve seen plenty of evidence that both engage in manipulation and both share unverified or false information, so the correct response isn’t to determine who is more trustworthy and pick one, it’s to evaluate the statements independently. Otherwise you’re just going to end up believing everything the Israeli government says, and you’ll get more truth that way than if you believed everything Hamas says, but you’ll still be lied to and manipulated along the way.

Which is why it’s a strawman to argue against the position of both being “equally” trustworthy as a response to the position that both are untrustworthy. If someone wanted to actually make an honest argument against the Israeli government being untrustworthy, they would just do that, and people could respond, but they don’t because that’s a more difficult argument to make than the argument against the government and Hamas being “equally” untrustworthy, which is lazy and unintellectual.

[zunie75]

This thread has filled my lifetime quota of reading/hearing the word "Strawman"

[monkeyman]

Here comes the brigade.

[undercoverbrother]

page 171, solution incoming