The Legend of Sam Bennett

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

It's funny to go back and read the first 30-40 pages of this thread.

Pretty much consensus that the Flames got a good return for Bennett.

Then Bennett started hot in Florida and all the complaints started.

And it's fair to complain about how he was leveraged in his time in Calgary, but really it's funny because without the benefit of hindsight the resounding thought was it was a good deal for Calgary.

I thought it was a terrible deal at the time as did many others. Consensus is subjective i guess. I know what you are meaning....lots liked it. But a lot didn't.

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by chedder

Definitely a total organizational failure on the Flames.

This. Bennett could get some blame for not being better while here. But what a breakdown by coaches and management in terms of development, use and helping him find his confidence.

[blankall]

Another thing to consider is Florida's home (21-3) vs away (5-5-5) record, and the fact they've played 24 games at home and 15 on the road. Their scoring goes down considerably on the road.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Lindholm:

CAR: 188pts in 374 games = 0.50ppg
CGY: 209pts in 242 games = 0.86ppg

Bennett:
CGY: 140pts in 402 games = 0.34ppg
FLA: 39pts in 40 games = 0.975ppg

Fun fact for Lindholm.

First 40 games in Calgary.

18 goals, 44 points, 1.10 PPG

So Lindholm had a 0.6 PPG in his first 40 games with the Flames, and Bennett had a 0.64 PPG increase in his first 40 games with the Panthers.

Closest comparison IMO, except Lindholm was better in Carolina than Bennett was in Calgary.

[powderjunkie]

The other thing with Savard is the lockout and league-wide scoring averages

avg goals per team in league - Savard
2.65 - 47p in 57 gp =0.82 after trade
2.57 - 52p in 45gp = 1.16
lockout
3.08 - 97 in 82 = 1.18(ATL)
2.95 - 96 in 82 = 1.17 (BOS)

Savard had 0.84 ppg in 00-01 (2.76 league), dropping to 0.59 the next year (2.62) in his last full year as a Flame.

Savard's 2003-04 (ie. first full season in ATL) was probably his most impressive offensive performance considering it was the deadest puck since 1956. 3rd in the league ppg behind only Forsberg (1.41; 39gp) and Palffy (1.17; 35gp)

http://www.nhl.com/stats/skaters?rep...0&pageSize=100

MSL was 4th at 1.15 ppg in 82 gp. This was the year Iggy/Kovalchuk/Nash tied for RR trophy with 41 goals.

Kovalchuk was Savard's main weapon, with McEachern, Kozlov, Heatley (31gp), and Stefan rounding out the top 6.

[powderjunkie]

The other footnote on Savard is that while we traded him away for peanuts, we also acquired him for peanuts at the 1999 draft:

1999 9OA (NYR took Lundmark) +1999 3rd + Jan Hlavak
for
1999 11OA (CGY took Saprykin) + Marc Savard


I think we reacquired the 3rd and selected Craig Anderson

Hlavak had played 0 nhl games at the time of the trade...he ended up playing 436nhl games across 6 seasons for 7 teams (incl. a second stint in NYR). He actually scored 19 and 28 goals in his first two NHL years. CGY acquired him for Jorgen Jonsson , our 227OA pick in 1994.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Fun fact for Lindholm.

First 40 games in Calgary.

18 goals, 44 points, 1.10 PPG

Closest comparison IMO, except Lindholm was better in Carolina than Bennett was in Calgary.

He wasn't "better" in Carolina. He was afforded more icetime becauze the Canes gave him (and Hanifin re:Kylington) legit opportunity from day 1.

Wayy back when we acquired Lindholm (or maybe back when everyone wanted to acquire Ryan O'Rielly?) I made a post on how Bennett was actually more productive for us in terms of primary points rate than those two had been for their teams. It was naturally laughed off but the core of my argument was that we had a natural centre, playing with worse linemates than the other two, who needed to elevated role rather than being stapled to the left wing of Jankowski and Hathaway.

I'd dig up the specific post I am referencing because I definitely remember making it, but digging through threads is a pretty time consuming tasks. But I am firmly of the position that Lindholm was NOT better for Carolina, nor ROR for Buffalo, than Bennett was for Calgary. The other two just got way more icetime.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Today I learned that goals don't count unless you score them at even strength and unassisted.

Also, playing on a line with Johnny Gaudreau will turn anybody into a 30-goal scorer. Which is why Sam Bennett turned into a powerhouse when put on a line with Gaudreau, and became the #1 centre we all hoped for, and there was never any reason to split them up again. Also, Nick Ritchie scored a bushel of goals on the first line because Gaudreau.

I think it’s more than fair to be extra hard on your 3rd highest paid player on the team whose contract is on the verge of buyout territory.

To me, a 2 goal game doesn’t fix all of Monahan’s problems he’s had this season. The counting stats aren’t the biggest problem I have with him, to me it’s about his defensive game, his checking and ability to elevate his linemates regardless of who it is.

There’s boatloads of posts and threads about why this team is struggling and why they’re not a contender and a lot of it has to do with this team being a one line team or being reliant one one guy. Gaudreau’s not going to get 4 assists every game, so on a night where he gets shut down, can we expect Monahan’s line to pick it up?

Until I see Monahan consistently elevate and rise to the occasion when the team needs him to, then I’ll be satisfied. Seeing Gaudreau raising the level of his game and elevating his linemates whoever they may be, we’ve seen this before, for all 18 wins this season.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

The other footnote on Savard is that while we traded him away for peanuts, we also acquired him for peanuts at the 1999 draft:

1999 9OA (NYR took Lundmark) +1999 3rd + Jan Hlavak
for
1999 11OA (CGY took Saprykin) + Marc Savard


I think we reacquired the 3rd and selected Craig Anderson

Hlavak had played 0 nhl games at the time of the trade...he ended up playing 436nhl games across 6 seasons for 7 teams (incl. a second stint in NYR). He actually scored 19 and 28 goals in his first two NHL years. CGY acquired him for Jorgen Jonsson , our 227OA pick in 1994.

Which is why I wondered why the Rangers got rid of him. He was producing pretty good for a first year guy.

I was SOOO pissed after we traded Savard, I wanted the Flames to lose every single game until Dilbert got fired.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

He wasn't "better" in Carolina. He was afforded more icetime becauze the Canes gave him (and Hanifin re:Kylington) legit opportunity from day 1.

Wayy back when we acquired Lindholm (or maybe back when everyone wanted to acquire Ryan O'Rielly?) I made a post on how Bennett was actually more productive for us in terms of primary points rate than those two had been for their teams. It was naturally laughed off but the core of my argument was that we had a natural centre, playing with worse linemates than the other two, who needed to elevated role rather than being stapled to the left wing of Jankowski and Hathaway.

I'd dig up the specific post I am referencing because I definitely remember making it, but digging through threads is a pretty time consuming tasks. But I am firmly of the position that Lindholm was NOT better for Carolina, nor ROR for Buffalo, than Bennett was for Calgary. The other two just got way more icetime.

It's not about the time of the trade to be honest. I know what you're talking about because I made a similar post looking at Bennett's iXG and chance numbers that off-season. I think we were in agreement that Bennett was generating a lot of individual scoring chances at that time and deserved more of a shot in our top 6.

Bennett led the Flames in individual expected goals per 60 in 17-18, and individual high danger chances. While dragging Brouwer/Janko around the ice.

But Bennett wasn't the guy he was in 17-18 in 20-21.

For me it's comparing Lindholms last three seasons before the trade from Carolina to Bennett's last three seasons in Calgary.

Lindholm:
15-16 to 17-18

GP: 235
TOI: 13:32
xGF%: 52.3%
Goals : 22 (0.09)
Points: 74 (0.31)
Individual xG per 60: 0.65
On ice shooting percentage: 6.48%
Individual shooting percentage: 6.13%

Bennett:
18-19 to 20-21

GP: 161
TOI: 11:27
xGF%: 51.9%
Goals : 21 (0.13)
Points: 44 (0.27)
Individual xG per 60: 0.79
On ice shooting percentage: 7.18%
Individual shooting percentage: 9.13%

At 5v5 Bennett has always been great at generating scoring chances, but Lindholm was probably the better overall player in terms of defensive impacts and points.

Overall though I think the point stands that at the time of trades they are the closest comparables I can think of.

Both guys were limited by poor on-ice and individual shooting percentages. And both guys took off once they got placed on a line with some chemistry that allowed those percentages to correct.

Lindholm had the better counting numbers (that could have all been opportunity) but Bennett was also coming off a very poor 19-20 regular season where he just wasn't himself and based on some models was one of the Flames worst regular forwards that season. (GSVA had him a -0.1 impact that season).

And it's where Florida has used Bennett well IMO. His transition play is strong, he excels at generating individual scoring chances, but he's struggled a bit with defensive zone coverage at time. So they've given him two great playmakers in Huberdeau and Duclair (6th and 32nd respectively in 5v5 assists the last two seasons), and have given them lots of offensive zone starts and offensive zone time to create offense.

Honestly I think if they would have put Tkachuk-Bennett-Versteeg together in 16-17 / 17-18 and had given them a heavier weight for offensive zone starts that we would have seen Sam Bennett break out as the top 6 center this team needed. But we had bad coaches, that didn't happen, and by the time the trade happened in 20-21 it was probably right to give him the fresh start he asked for.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

Which is why I wondered why the Rangers got rid of him. He was producing pretty good for a first year guy.

I was SOOO pissed after we traded Savard, I wanted the Flames to lose every single game until Dilbert got fired.

NYR must've really wanted Lundmark.

It's funny because this was the off-season where Gretzky had retired, leaving them with Nedved and Savard as the only C's on the roster.

They ended up signing Fleury, and then Tim Taylor (played 3C minutes) in that UFA period...Mike York had a great rookie year for them; not sure if he played C or LW though...

[shadowlord]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Honestly I think if they would have put Tkachuk-Bennett-Versteeg together in 16-17 / 17-18 and had given them a heavier weight for offensive zone starts that we would have seen Sam Bennett break out as the top 6 center this team needed. But we had bad coaches, that didn't happen, and by the time the trade happened in 20-21 it was probably right to give him the fresh start he asked for.

In 2016, they put Tkachuk-Bennett together along with (ugh) Brouwer, and that combo has some very early success in the pre-season. However about 15-20 games into the season, Tkachuk-Backlund-Frolik (the 3M-line) turned out to be a dominant 2-way line, so Tkachuk-Bennett was split up.

2016 was also Tkachuk's rookie season, so I'm sure that pairing him with the veteran leadership of Backlund was a plus, and as we all know, Backlund has had a significant positive effect on many, but not all, of linemates over the years.

Someone will have to check the usage stats, but I believe that this is when they tried Versteeg-Bennett-Brouwer.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I think it’s more than fair to be extra hard on your 3rd highest paid player on the team whose contract is on the verge of buyout territory.

To me, a 2 goal game doesn’t fix all of Monahan’s problems he’s had this season. The counting stats aren’t the biggest problem I have with him, to me it’s about his defensive game, his checking and ability to elevate his linemates regardless of who it is.

There’s boatloads of posts and threads about why this team is struggling and why they’re not a contender and a lot of it has to do with this team being a one line team or being reliant one one guy. Gaudreau’s not going to get 4 assists every game, so on a night where he gets shut down, can we expect Monahan’s line to pick it up?

Until I see Monahan consistently elevate and rise to the occasion when the team needs him to, then I’ll be satisfied. Seeing Gaudreau raising the level of his game and elevating his linemates whoever they may be, we’ve seen this before, for all 18 wins this season.

A little unfair. I think Monahan's checking game has been way better. As for "elevating his linemates" I suspect that a Monahan would need a crane to elevate those guys offensively. JG has elevated his linemates, but he has gotten the likes of Lindholm, Tkachuk, Monahan, Hudler and Ferland, and I'd challenge the assumption that he'd elevate Richardson and Lewis in any significant way.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by activeStick

It was clear that Darryl came into the fold looking to give Bennett a fresh look and fresh opportunity, and he did that. But after some time, Sutter had Bennett back more or less into the roles Sam found himself in under previous coaches. To me, that tells me that Sutter made his evaluation based on what he saw from Sam and was aligned with trading him.

I'm certain Tre would have consulted Sutter before trading Sam. He strikes me as the collaborative type GM and Sutter was in alignment at the time.

[Vinny01]

I remember thinking after we drafted Tkachuk we had the makings of 2 absolute elite pairings.

Monahan-Gaudreau who were looking like an elite combo who can light teams up
Bennett-Tkachuk who were gritty, high skilled players who would get in oppositions face and score plenty of goals.

I know it was a timing thing but if Sutter would have agreed to come here either after Peters was let go or after the bubble I think the team would have salvaged Sam. By the time Darryl got here it was too late and Ward had done significant damage to the relationship and screwed him around so much that the trade request was made public.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I'm certain Tre would have consulted Sutter before trading Sam. He strikes me as the collaborative type GM and Sutter was in alignment at the time.

I'm sure conversations were had. Ultimately all of the other extenuating factors made a trade the logical move even if Sutter was adamant about keeping him.

The only alternative would have been trading someone else (Monny being the only real option given Backlund's NTC at the time). For all we know that was explored, but it's understandable why Tre made the choice he did.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I remember thinking after we drafted Tkachuk we had the makings of 2 absolute elite pairings.

Monahan-Gaudreau who were looking like an elite combo who can light teams up
Bennett-Tkachuk who were gritty, high skilled players who would get in oppositions face and score plenty of goals.

I know it was a timing thing but if Sutter would have agreed to come here either after Peters was let go or after the bubble I think the team would have salvaged Sam. By the time Darryl got here it was too late and Ward had done significant damage to the relationship and screwed him around so much that the trade request was made public.

Bennett- Tkachuk never got a real shot together IMO. No idea why. Always seemed like a no brainer combo to me.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

A little unfair. I think Monahan's checking game has been way better. As for "elevating his linemates" I suspect that a Monahan would need a crane to elevate those guys offensively. JG has elevated his linemates, but he has gotten the likes of Lindholm, Tkachuk, Monahan, Hudler and Ferland, and I'd challenge the assumption that he'd elevate Richardson and Lewis in any significant way.

Monahan has played with just about everyone in the lineup to get going, but has looked pretty terrible with everyone, which is why I suspect Darryl has kept him in the bottom 6, to limit the damage he does to the team.

He’s up there with the some of worst offenders on the team in terms of 5 on 5 goals scored to goals allowed (12 to 17) and he doesn’t even have the toughest matchups. He’s going up against 3rd pairing dmen and other bottom 6 lines and yet he’s tied for second among Flames’ forwards with the most goals allowed, that’s pretty unacceptable for player who has supposedly been working on his defensive game and earns what he earns.

Also, I disagree vehemently that his checking game has been better. If he was better at checking, he would’ve been able to generate more offense from his checking game. His even strength scoring is basically non existent, essentially at the same level as Trevor Lewis who’s a league minimum replacement level player. Just because Monahan is working harder this season, doesn’t mean he’s been effective or impacting the game positively.

If he wants to check at a high level, then he can look no further than the top line who check at an elite level. Shift by shift, you can see them constantly closing in on the opposition, applying pressure, giving up nothing and taking advantage in the process. That’s why their goals for to goals allowed ratio is in range of 30ish to 10ish depending on who you look at or 3 to 1.

Even though Backlund has struggled offensively this season, his ratio is still a net positive to the team despite the minutes he plays to go along with his shutdown role. If he’s not going to score a lot anymore in his new role, fine, but don’t go allowing amongst the most goals on the team. That’s why it’s more than fair for any one to be critical about Monahan’s game right now, he and whatever his line is that night is hurting the team more than he’s helping.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Monahan has played with just about everyone in the lineup to get going, but has looked pretty terrible with everyone, which is why I suspect Darryl has kept him in the bottom 6, to limit the damage he does to the team.

He’s up there with the some of worst offenders on the team in terms of 5 on 5 goals scored to goals allowed (12 to 17) and he doesn’t even have the toughest matchups. He’s going up against 3rd pairing dmen and other bottom 6 lines and yet he’s tied for second among Flames’ forwards with the most goals allowed, that’s pretty unacceptable for player who has supposedly been working on his defensive game and earns what he earns.

Also, I disagree vehemently that his checking game has been better. If he was better at checking, he would’ve been able to generate more offense from his checking game. His even strength scoring is basically non existent, essentially at the same level as Trevor Lewis who’s a league minimum replacement level player. Just because Monahan is working harder this season, doesn’t mean he’s been effective or impacting the game positively.

If he wants to check at a high level, then he can look no further than the top line who check at an elite level. Shift by shift, you can see them constantly closing in on the opposition, applying pressure, giving up nothing and taking advantage in the process. That’s why their goals for to goals allowed ratio is in range of 30ish to 10ish depending on who you look at or 3 to 1.

Even though Backlund has struggled offensively this season, his ratio is still a net positive to the team despite the minutes he plays to go along with his shutdown role. If he’s not going to score a lot anymore in his new role, fine, but don’t go allowing amongst the most goals on the team. That’s why it’s more than fair for any one to be critical about Monahan’s game right now, he and whatever his line is that night is hurting the team more than he’s helping.

Nah, this just isn't true. The stats show he's been pretty effective with various combinations outside of Richardson/Lewis.

His even strength scoring equal to Lewis? Maybe that's because he's mostly been playing with Lewis. Same goes for goals allowed. Put a guy with plugs and his defensive stats are going to suffer. Have a look at Monahan's defensive stats outside of the line.

I'm not saying it's unfair to be critical. It's those particular criticisms that are unfair.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Monahan has played with just about everyone in the lineup to get going, but has looked pretty terrible with everyone, which is why I suspect Darryl has kept him in the bottom 6, to limit the damage he does to the team.

He’s up there with the some of worst offenders on the team in terms of 5 on 5 goals scored to goals allowed (12 to 17) and he doesn’t even have the toughest matchups. He’s going up against 3rd pairing dmen and other bottom 6 lines and yet he’s tied for second among Flames’ forwards with the most goals allowed, that’s pretty unacceptable for player who has supposedly been working on his defensive game and earns what he earns.

Also, I disagree vehemently that his checking game has been better. If he was better at checking, he would’ve been able to generate more offense from his checking game. His even strength scoring is basically non existent, essentially at the same level as Trevor Lewis who’s a league minimum replacement level player. Just because Monahan is working harder this season, doesn’t mean he’s been effective or impacting the game positively.

If he wants to check at a high level, then he can look no further than the top line who check at an elite level. Shift by shift, you can see them constantly closing in on the opposition, applying pressure, giving up nothing and taking advantage in the process. That’s why their goals for to goals allowed ratio is in range of 30ish to 10ish depending on who you look at or 3 to 1.

Even though Backlund has struggled offensively this season, his ratio is still a net positive to the team despite the minutes he plays to go along with his shutdown role. If he’s not going to score a lot anymore in his new role, fine, but don’t go allowing amongst the most goals on the team. That’s why it’s more than fair for any one to be critical about Monahan’s game right now, he and whatever his line is that night is hurting the team more than he’s helping.

Let check some actual stats.

Monahan with/Lewis

41.0 xGF%
1.8 xGF per 60
2.59 xGA per 60

Monahan without Lewis

53.9% xGF%
2.65 xGF per 60
2.27 xGA per 60

If you isolate his time spent away from Lewis he would rank:

xGF%: 7th (between Dube and Coleman)
xGF per 60: 8th (between Coleman and Backlund)
xGA per 60: 3rd (between Lindholm and Mangiapane)

So he's acutally been pretty decent overall way from Lewis, and his xGA rates are actually really strong when not on the ice with Lewis.

I know people will see what they want, but Monahan has been quietly reliable in his own end so far this year.

Like some of the other forwards (Monahan, Coleman, Backlund) their on ice shooting percentage has been really really low and that's hurt production. And a PDO of .974 is also really low overall.