Calgary Civic Election: Mayoralty Poll #4 - The Heat is On

[frinkprof]

Regarding all the ring road talk, I know I said it a few pages back, but it can't be stressed enouigh:

The Ring Road is a project funded and managed by the Province of Alberta. They call the shots. Mayoral or aldermanic candidates having a "vision" or "solution" for the Ring Road doesn't mean a hell of a lot when it comes to actually getting it done.

[stampsx2]

^^^So 85% for the NE?

Their support is important since the municipal government have a lot of say.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Its $300 million for the tunnel and upwards of $500 million including necessary interchanges and other upgrades.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/sto...-alliance.html

$200 million just for a few at-grade intersections on either side of the tunnel? I guess they're talking about building Airport Trail to the ultimate design right off the bat, which would be stupid. That seems overkill to me, and there's nothing in that story that details where that money goes.

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Regarding all the ring road talk, I know I said it a few pages back, but it can't be stressed enouigh:

The Ring Road is a project funded and managed by the Province of Alberta. They call the shots. Mayoral or aldermanic candidates having a "vision" or "solution" for the Ring Road doesn't mean a hell of a lot when it comes to actually getting it done.

Well, the City gets some say in it. They signed a memorandum of understanding to work together on the design on the SW Ring Road.

[frinkprof]

^Yes that is true. They do get some say and do have some role to play. It's certainly more complex than Nenshi, Burrows, Higgins or Fech saying "this is my solution."

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

^^^So 85% for the NE?

Their support is important since the municipal government have a lot of say.

I doubt it is as much as 85% for the NE. Without knowing for sure, I would guess maybe 50%. Most would work at the airport or the NE or SE industrial/business parks.

There isn't much industry or employment in the SW part of the city. Other than the SAIT/University/Research Park corridor, there isn't much in the NW either. The trend in Calgary is to live west and work east.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

^Yes that is true. They do get some say and do have some role to play. It's certainly more complex than Nenshi, Burrows, Higgins or Fech saying "this is my solution."

Oh definitely. They get some say, but since they aren't the ones spending the big bucks, they can and will be overridden when the province doesn't agree with them. If some mayor goes to the province and says "I don't want the SW Ring Road built", they will laugh and move on.

[Kerplunk]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

$200 million just for a few at-grade intersections on either side of the tunnel? I guess they're talking about building Airport Trail to the ultimate design right off the bat, which would be stupid. That seems overkill to me, and there's nothing in that story that details where that money goes.

It's $200 million for the initial cut and cover, and $300 million for interchange upgrades (if/when needed).

Without the tunnel, the estimate is $345 million in upgrades to improve alternate access. This doesn't take into account cost of upgrading existing roads when planned commercial development goes up along Country Hills and they find that these routes are becoming clogged up.

Of course, if they go "oh crap, we need a tunnel" in the future, the cost more than doubles.

Info doc. I think this is one of the recent ones.

[browna]

As far as I'm concerned, any candidate who says a new SW ring road is not necessary, short term or long term, is out to lunch.

Decades of city planning and studies have proved that (and shot down the 14st Theory). If the "First Nations" weren't scared by some in the reserve (which didn't include the Chief) on that last weekend before the vote, that the white man was trading them modern day disease infected blankets in the form of land title swaps (which weren't secured yet was the issue...obviously as the province didn't own all that land at that exact second) and dump trucks full of cash for each band member, for thier valuable Buffalo meat (in the modern day form of land access to build a road) the project would be well on its way and that much closer to a much more efficient traffic management in this city and I don't think there'd be too many people complaining.

I live in Lakeview, and used to live in deep south when I went to U of C just over a decade ago. A car is stalled in the right lane at 14st and Glenmore? Gawkers force cars backing up to Curry Barracks, and that was a decade ago...now the lineup starts just past 17th SW just based on volume, never mind an accident on that single solitary road to get from the West Central SW and further south to the Central SW.

Far far far too many bottlenecks to say that 14st is the solution. Even if you widen it from Southland or even knock out homes and make it Anderson, you still have only two lanes crossing over the flyover onto Glenmore. You have one lane off ramp then from MacLeod South on to Anderson West to get to 14st. You have to build an interchange at MacLeod and 14st. Probably one at Anderson and Elbow too, and at Anderson and 24st to stop the traffic from backing up before it gets to the widened (but bottlenecked in the end at Glenmore) 14st.

Nevermind the daily delays it will take as all that widening and interchanges get built on those current, and currently over capacity roads like 14st, having to build detours like the did on the Glenmore widening/Elbow underpass from 2003-2008 so that at least some traffic can continue to flow. Instead, a new road gets built, affecting virtually nothing other then the widening of Glenmore trail between Sarcee and Crowchild, where the space is there were disruption is minimal. The main section from Glenmore south along 37st can be done as fast as they can roll out pavement, put up a bridge and put up new interchanges where there is nothing but brushland now south of the Weasalhead, not worrying about rerouting anything.

The plan to have Glenmore widened past Crowchild to 3 lanes both ways has been ready to go for 6 years, and the widening up to Crowchild as of last year proves any doubt about that. Land is there and so are the detailed plans, as I saw at an open house just after we moved here. The holdup was getting the reserve ring road deal done. So, Glenmore and the interchanges at Crowchild and the plan at 37 st, are ready to handle the extra traffic coming too and from downtown (and obviously from the Sarcee Trail side), far more ahead then even the silly stop gap notion of widening 14st.

Make it 37st. Get it done. Don't bother cowering to the First Nations and make the access to their Casino as difficult as possible (I would say make the First Nations build their own road from the south). Ensure no access to Lakeview from 37st to prevent cutting through, and make sure Lakeview residents have the proper sound walls and are able keep priority access to North Glenmore park. Do it as enviromentally "quiet" as possible over that part of the Weaslhead and resovior. Make sure the interchanges along the way connect properly/future proofed...at Anderson, 90th, Southland, James McKevitt, as you extend 37 st south to 22x past James McKevitt.

As Lakeview residents, will suck, especially those on the west side...some of the greatest views of the mountains from some of those homes with nothing across from them on 37st. But this has to be done, inexcusible that the access to downtown and the west side of the city, for those that live even in the central sw like Oakridge, Palliser, and places south, have to rely on one single road Glenmore being accident free, or else a 30 minute commute to downtown turns into an hour or more, with one option only to get out north of their community, nevermind anyone else who has to get west.

Ridiculous that this issue has taken this long, 5 years at least too long with the First Nations dragging their feet, and then caving in against their Chiefs support last minute...as I said, any candidate who downplays this as a major city infrastructure/efficiency/quality of life issue that affects probably 100K+ people in one way or another on a regular basis, or, wants to spend more time and money researching alternatives, when the research has been done, and plans are in place to move ahead, have absolutley no right to hold the title of leading this city as mayor.

[Cscutch]

I don't think the ring road in the SW is the entire solution, yes it may help, but putting all hope in it is very short sighted as well.

For example I used to live in NE Calgary and to go visit my Dad in Rocky Ridge It was a nightmare going up either McKnight Blvd, Country Hills, or any other east/west corridor.

That portion of the ring road is now completed and I was at my Dads house one day and was going to go visit an old friend who lives in Taradale, both communities are right up against the ring road and provide easy access, The trip was pretty quick but still a bit long due to the just the numbers of Km’s that have to be travelled, remember you are wrapping around the whole outside of the city.

But here is the kicker, After a quick visit with the friend I decided to head home through the internal arteries of the NE, which should be better since the ring road had opened. The thing is the traffic wasn’t any better, 3 to 4 waits at specific lights, just like before, backed up traffic on McKnight Blvd and Barlow Trail.

So yes the ring road has to be looked at but other things still have to be done.

Chris

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by browna

As far as I'm concerned, any candidate who says a new SW ring road is not necessary, short term or long term, is out to lunch.

While I agree a road is necessary, and most likely it should involve an extension of 37th St, I don't think the 8-lane highway (with future expansion to 16 lanes) currently being called for is needed. A smaller-scale highway would solve a lot of problems without having to expropriate so many houses.

[mykalberta]

The solution in the SW is simple, bridge over weaselhead. This is one thing I dont think an N^2 mayor would do, but it is something I think Dr No would do. Because it doesnt affect me at all so its not an issue that sways my vote, but anyone who it is important to should consider it come election day.

The simple answer is previous councils and mayors ignored the issue and bet on the reserve, that bet obviously backfired and now its this and future councils have have to fix the enourmous clusterfrack. The residents of the SW are partly to blame for not electing stronger officials who should have pushed for solutions earlier.

[4X4]

What about this:

(nobody replied and it made me sad)

Originally Posted by 4X4

Maybe there might be a possible way to re-negotiate with the Tuss Tina. The original plan was a big swath of land more or less in line with the end of sarcee and joining up with the southren part of 37th. I wonder if the city has ever considered trying to simply purchase a few meters of land directly adjacent to 37th? I mean, instead of expropriating the people that live backing on to 37th, buy the first 50 meters of reserve land along 37th. Maybe the tsuutina feel differently about that land? Didnt they claim that the other swath would have involved going over some "sacred" land? I'm a honkey, so no land is sacred to me. I have no idea whether they're BSing about it, or what, but who am I to say.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Kerplunk

It's $200 million for the initial cut and cover, and $300 million for interchange upgrades (if/when needed).

Without the tunnel, the estimate is $345 million in upgrades to improve alternate access. This doesn't take into account cost of upgrading existing roads when planned commercial development goes up along Country Hills and they find that these routes are becoming clogged up.

Of course, if they go "oh crap, we need a tunnel" in the future, the cost more than doubles.

Info doc. I think this is one of the recent ones.

Your link isn't working for me, it can't find any document apparently.

I was only referencing the story quoted earlier for prices. $200 million tunnel, $300 million upgrades, it makes no difference to me. I'm trying to say that it appears to be grossly overestimated for the initial demand. We don't need free-flowing interchanges along Airport Trail from Deerfoot Trail to Stoney Trail in Fall 2012, we need that in Fall 2030. Building ~8km of four lane road with signalized intersections at 19th Street, Barlow Trail, 36th Street, Metis Trail and 68th Street will not cost $300 million, more like $50-75 million.

If you don't build the tunnel, you will need to construct multiple grade separated interchanges along McKnight Boulevard, Country Hills Boulevard and Metis Trail to support the traffic load. Hence the $345 million cost. This still does not solve the problem in 20-30 years of what happens when demand exceeds the capacity provided by the limited right-of-way available on those corridors to support the large amount of traffic the NE will see by then.

If you look at the cut and cover cost, plus the initial 4 lane road option I listed above, you're not hitting the extreme costs that are constantly quoted to scare people. I fail to see why this eludes so many candidates. If you want to win votes, why not present the most pleasant sounding option to make both sides more open to the idea? Why is it no tunnel or a "$500-700 million" tunnel?

Originally Posted by Cscutch

But here is the kicker, After a quick visit with the friend I decided to head home through the internal arteries of the NE, which should be better since the ring road had opened. The thing is the traffic wasn’t any better, 3 to 4 waits at specific lights, just like before, backed up traffic on McKnight Blvd and Barlow Trail.

The NE Ring Road is not going to take a huge load off the NE internal arteries yet. Why? Because it has no connections at this point. I want to go to the South from Taradale for example, but why would I take Stoney? I have to get off at 16th or 17th Avenue then either take 84th Street south (which sucks), or travel all the way back to Deerfoot to keep going South. It's not attractive yet. In the NW, the Ring Road connects to more major E-W arteries, and is closely connected to more communities than the relatively wide open NE end of the city, so it gets more traffic right now.

I'm willing to bet the NE end will get more busy after the SE Ring Road is completed.

[Cscutch]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

The NE Ring Road is not going to take a huge load off the NE internal arteries yet. Why? Because it has no connections at this point. I want to go to the South from Taradale for example, but why would I take Stoney? I have to get off at 16th or 17th Avenue then either take 84th Street south (which sucks), or travel all the way back to Deerfoot to keep going South. It's not attractive yet. In the NW, the Ring Road connects to more major E-W arteries, and is closely connected to more communities than the relatively wide open NE end of the city, so it gets more traffic right now.

I'm willing to bet the NE end will get more busy after the SE Ring Road is completed.

That was the whole idea of my post... You can talk about a ring road being built but if the internal arteries aren't fixed it doesn't help.

Chris

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Cscutch

That was the whole idea of my post... You can talk about a ring road being built but if the internal arteries aren't fixed it doesn't help.

Chris

Come back to me when it's actually a whole ring, and we'll talk about it.

[Table 5]

Man, this thread sure underlines how much Calgarians focus on transportation issues....it seems like the be all and end all to all discussion during election time. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to deduce from that.

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by Cscutch

That was the whole idea of my post... You can talk about a ring road being built but if the internal arteries aren't fixed it doesn't help.

Chris

I think you missed the point of hi (or I did). As far as residents of Calgary are concerned, the ring road as it sits is a one trick pony. It allows people travelling from a place in the north to another place in the north more easily. If it allowed people to travel from the North, to the SE or SW, then it would be used far more often.

[shermanator]

While we're talking about transportation, where's the fix to the Crowchild Trail between 24th ave and Bow Trail? That interchange was built in the 1960's and hasn't been fixed!

[/inner city resident demanding my infrastructure fix]

[yads]

Originally Posted by V

EPCOR doesn't own the generation assets, though, do they? The way I understand it, Capital Power is publicly traded and includes all of the generation assets.

The City of Edmonton still owns all the distribution and transmission assets, as well as all the water treatment and distribution assets.

I still don't understand how EPCOR's strategy of selling off Capital Power will work for them, though. They've basically hinged all of their growth potential on the price of a stock that they don't control. Sounds pretty risky to me.

I was under the impression that they did when I worked there. The city of Edmonton is the only shareholder of Epcor though, so indirectly the city owns everything. There are actually two publicly traded securities under the name of Capital Power. One is the income trust which includes a portfolio of what I believe are non Alberta generation assets. The other is the trading desk business.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by shermanator

While we're talking about transportation, where's the fix to the Crowchild Trail between 24th ave and Bow Trail? That interchange was built in the 1960's and hasn't been fixed!

[/inner city resident demanding my infrastructure fix]

And it's one of the worst designs ever at memorial and bow. The people leaving DT on 11ave and wanting to get on to memorial cause NB Crow to back up to 17th or 26th or even 33rd on some days. I want to try whatever drug those designers were on.