Ban organized religion, says Elton John

[eazyduzzit]

Originally Posted by Cheese

I am 100% positive that without religion, secular organizations would take up the slack of support. Its simply foolish to believe that support for the sick and dieing rests solely on the shoulders of men of the cloth. Thats the fabrication they have melded for thousands of years.
Churches prey on the fear of death.

How can you be 100% sure of the unknown? You don't seem to realize all the good religion does, what it organizes and what it accomplishes. Not to mention, what it would take to fill a void that big.

Refere to Red Mile Styles post, i think he said it best.

P.s. - Well said Red Mile Style!

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

How can you be 100% sure of the unknown? You don't seem to realize all the good religion does, what it organizes and what it accomplishes. Not to mention, what it would take to fill a void that big.

Refere to Red Mile Styles post, i think he said it best.

P.s. - Well said Red Mile Style!

Well I can certainly throw that right back at you and say...how can you be 100% certain that a secular society would not take up the slack? Circular logic the theists LOVE to toss out.
Isnt it rather pessimistic to think that man is inherantly bad or evil? Isnt that what the church has programmed many to think? Isnt that "negative" thinking? If the church or Christians really think thats true...then what on earth would make anyone think they are good for society?
There is simply no reason or basis to suggest that man would not be a postive social animal without the influence of the church.
Again...just so you are aware...and as a reminder...do you think that just because Im an Atheist I have had no affiliation with a Christian church?
Do you believe that the vast majority of Atheists have had no touch in the Christian world?
For every single positive element you can list about postive role modelling in the church I can post one from a secular perspective....the real tough part starts when you have to start listing all of the atrocities created by religion...any religion. I dont think you will get an even comaprison with the secular world in that regard.

The Christian church preys on the fear of death....if you are bad or evil you will go to CalgaryBornAgains Hell....so you better be good and you better praise <pick a God>. Evil is a creation of the church.

William Shakespeare said there is nothing either good nor bad but thinking makes it so.
I think good.

[eazyduzzit]

Your a lunatic, and yes i do believe man is cruel and certain things make it otherwise - not all man - but a good chunk. You need a reality check if you think otherwise.

Nothing but athiesm is coming out of your mouth at whatever costs, you just hate religion and want rid of it for the good of what - gays?

Let's ban religion which has been around for centuries, along with all the positives it DOES and has DONE for a bunch of benders - good idea.

I'm out.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

Your a lunatic, and yes i do believe man is cruel and certain things make it otherwise - not all man - but a good chunk. You need a reality check if you think otherwise.

Nothing but athiesm is coming out of your mouth at whatever costs, you just hate religion and want rid of it for the good of what - gays?

Let's ban religion which has been around for centuries, along with all the positives it DOES and has DONE for a bunch of benders - good idea.

I'm out.

Hey..you must know CalgaryBornAgain? LOL...well you really told me.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

Your a lunatic, and yes i do believe man is cruel and certain things make it otherwise - not all man - but a good chunk. You need a reality check if you think otherwise.

Nothing but athiesm is coming out of your mouth at whatever costs, you just hate religion and want rid of it for the good of what - gays?

Let's ban religion which has been around for centuries, along with all the positives it DOES and has DONE for a bunch of benders - good idea.

I'm out.

Is this a joke?

"You are crazy, people are bad, religion is good, I am religious, I don't like homosexuals".

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Is this a joke?

"You are crazy, people are bad, religion is good, I am religious, I don't like homosexuals".

We dun like dem queers runnin' 'round here...

Seriously, this is the same kind of atituded that leads to racism and anti-semitism. I have another question for CBA...do you think all Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc are going to hell for not recognizing Jesus as their lord and savior?

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I have another question for CBA...do you think all Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc are going to hell for not recognizing Jesus as their lord and savior?

I'll let scriptures answer your question:

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I'll let scriptures answer your question:

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Wow...your right CBA!!! I never saw it that way before. What about the Mormans, Jehovahs Witnesses & Catholics?
Do you take your family out to eat at Red Lobster?

Christian fundamentalism has witnessed a frightening expansion in recent years. Christian fundamentalism is based on the belief that Christianity alone represents the truth. All other religions are alleged to be false and even Satanic and their followers are said to be destined for hell.


Fundamentalists have a loathing of democracy when it applies equally to others. One bitter fundamentalist had this to say, "democracy is the cause of all world problems...humans are under the law of God, and thus they CANNOT do anything they want or speak anything they wish to speak...democracy ultimately started with Satan...we can't rule ourselves. God must rule us...those who actually set up America, and drew up the laws were people who did not favor Christianity. Christians living during that time disagreed with those in power or rather the founding fathers. They saw them as ultra liberals, and of course, they were."

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Wow...your right CBA!!! I never saw it that way before. What about the Mormans, Jehovahs Witnesses & Catholics?

You'll be delighted to know that God treats all men equally. Without receiving Christ even a Baptist will go to hell.

Christian fundamentalism has witnessed a frightening expansion in recent years. Christian fundamentalism is based on the belief that Christianity alone represents the truth. All other religions are alleged to be false and even Satanic and their followers are said to be destined for hell.

And Atheists believe they're right and all religion is wrong.

Fundamentalists have a loathing of democracy when it applies equally to others.

http://www.visitrhodeisland.com/facts_history/history.aspx
"Roger Williams founded the first permanent white settlement in Rhode Island at Providence in 1636 on land purchased from the Narragansett Indians. Forced to flee Massachusetts because of persecution, Williams established a policy of religious and political freedom in his new settlement. Other leaders advocating freedom of worship soon established similar communities on either side of Narragansett Bay. These communities united, and in 1663 King Charles II of England granted them a royal charter, providing for a greater degree of self-government than any other colony in the New World and authorizing the continuation of freedom of religion."

It should be noted that Rhode Island was the only Baptist colony.


Now lets look briefly at the Atheist's glorious track record:

"Rudolph J. Rummel of the University of Hawaii outlines that barbarism in his book "Death by Government," a comprehensive detailing of the roughly 170 million people murdered by their own governments during the 20th century. From 1917 to its collapse in 1991, the Soviet Union murdered about 62 million of its own people. During Mao Tse-tung's reign, 35,236,000, possibly more, Chinese citizens were murdered. By comparison, Hitler's Nazis managed to murder 21 million of its citizens and citizens in nations they conquered. Adding these numbers to the 60 million lives lost in war makes the 20th century mankind's most brutal era."

China of course is still oppressing religion. They arrest and imprison christians; raiding house churches whereever found. Sounds like a Atheistic utopia doesn't it Cheese.

One bitter fundamentalist had this to say, "democracy is the cause of all world problems...humans are under the law of God, and thus they CANNOT do anything they want or speak anything they wish to speak...democracy ultimately started with Satan...we can't rule ourselves. God must rule us...those who actually set up America, and drew up the laws were people who did not favor Christianity. Christians living during that time disagreed with those in power or rather the founding fathers. They saw them as ultra liberals, and of course, they were."

Please tell me who you are quoting or is this just more Atheistic propaganda?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

You'll be delighted to know that God treats all men equally. Without receiving Christ even a Baptist will go to hell.



And Atheists believe they're right and all religion is wrong.





http://www.visitrhodeisland.com/facts_history/history.aspx
"Roger Williams founded the first permanent white settlement in Rhode Island at Providence in 1636 on land purchased from the Narragansett Indians. Forced to flee Massachusetts because of persecution, Williams established a policy of religious and political freedom in his new settlement. Other leaders advocating freedom of worship soon established similar communities on either side of Narragansett Bay. These communities united, and in 1663 King Charles II of England granted them a royal charter, providing for a greater degree of self-government than any other colony in the New World and authorizing the continuation of freedom of religion."

It should be noted that Rhode Island was the only Baptist colony.


Now lets look briefly at the Atheist's glorious track record:

"Rudolph J. Rummel of the University of Hawaii outlines that barbarism in his book "Death by Government," a comprehensive detailing of the roughly 170 million people murdered by their own governments during the 20th century. From 1917 to its collapse in 1991, the Soviet Union murdered about 62 million of its own people. During Mao Tse-tung's reign, 35,236,000, possibly more, Chinese citizens were murdered. By comparison, Hitler's Nazis managed to murder 21 million of its citizens and citizens in nations they conquered. Adding these numbers to the 60 million lives lost in war makes the 20th century mankind's most brutal era."

China of course is still oppressing religion. They arrest and imprison christians; raiding house churches whereever found. Sounds like a Atheistic utopia doesn't it Cheese.







Please tell me who you are quoting or is this just more Atheistic propaganda?

wow ...thanks for agreeing with everything I wrote CBA.
You still on the Communist = Athiest bandwagon LOLOL. I thought you might have become a bit better educated after Cow and troutman hammered you in other threads.
Keep the blindfolds on your children...they will grow up to be perfectly bigoted as well.

Hitler’s National Socialist German Workers Party used the Bible and their perversion of Christianity to promote bigotry, discrimination and hatred of Jews, gypsies, the physically and mentally impaired and, of course, homosexuals. The Klu Klux Klan still uses the Bible and their perversion of Christianity to promote bigotry, discrimination and hatred of Blacks, Jews and, of course, homosexuals. The American Family Association constantly uses the Bible and their perversion of Christianity to promote bigotry, discrimination and hatred, but they have a more focused target: homosexuals and any group or company that supports the social recognition or legal equality of gay and lesbian Americans, such as the dastardly “pro-homosexual” Wal-Mart chain.

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publ...cle_1391.shtml

How about another discussion on Noah and his ark...or Eve created from Adam? I have always loved picking holes in your arsenal CBA.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Keep the blindfolds on your children...they will grow up to be perfectly bigoted as well.

Hey Cheese, remember what MRCboi said, he grew up as a child with two parents who were both conservative christian, but still managed to turn gay.

I guess not even CB's children are safe from the gay.

[kermitology]

Pure communism rejects religion because it institutes a basis for a class system when there are religious leaders who preach to the masses and thereby control those masses. Of course communism in practice does the same thing, so it's kind of a relative argument.

Athiesm does not equate to the murder of civilians though. That's communism opressing the masses. Stalin in particular was a paranoid delusional (re: Great Purge) so don't be placing that on Athiests.

You're both wrong. Your fate at the end of your time in this world/reality is dependant upon your beliefs. Cheese.. you will simply cease to exist. CBA.. you will go to heaven for accepting Christ. Me.. I'm off to the next plane of reality and conciousness.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by kermitology

Pure communism rejects religion because it institutes a basis for a class system when there are religious leaders who preach to the masses and thereby control those masses. Of course communism in practice does the same thing, so it's kind of a relative argument.

Athiesm does not equate to the murder of civilians though. That's communism opressing the masses. Stalin in particular was a paranoid delusional (re: Great Purge) so don't be placing that on Athiests.

You're both wrong. Your fate at the end of your time in this world/reality is dependant upon your beliefs. Cheese.. you will simply cease to exist. CBA.. you will go to heaven for accepting Christ. Me.. I'm off to the next plane of reality and conciousness.

LOL...Thanks Kerm...that is a better explanation than CBAs...whos entire existence is based on the fear of hell. Satan as far as I'm concerned is a myth used by Christians as an excuse to silence their critics and terrorize others. The concept comes from Eastern religion and doesn't even exist in Judaism today. Christians seem to have gotten this from the Essenes and Gnostics.

The ancient Greeks invented concepts of reason, modern science, modern history, and democracy 2500 years ago. They knew the world wasn't flat and even touched on evolution knowing the world wasn't 6000 years old. Even the church fathers such as St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas figured out the earth was not only very old, but life also sprang from a common source. Even more shocking to many people in America today is the gifts the Arabs would transmit to the modern world. They would not only preserve the great discoveries of the Greeks, but would greatly expand them. They would invent algebra (an Arabic word), and transmitted from India the base 10 number system (the concept of zero did away with the cumbersome Roman system), and expand science and math far beyond even Greece. Greek philosophy, destroyed or lost by the Catholic Church, would be brought back to light by contacts with Arabs in Spain. Arab writers in the 10th century even knew that mountains were formed by rain, wind, and land upheavals over a long period of time and figured out what Christian Europe rejected until the age of Charles Darwin.
The Christian churches knew of all of this, but rejected them for political reasons and mindless dogma.

[kermitology]

Hey CBA.. question for you regarding your Athiesm - murder argument..

What about the crusades? One might be led to believe that the crusades are a very good example of the power of religion to cause havoc and destruction. I mean.. they were called for by the pope and all. All in the name of recapturing Jerusalem from the Muslims right?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Please tell me who you are quoting or is this just more Atheistic propaganda?

Come on now. You are quoting the bible and at the same time accusing someone else of using propaganda?

If I were you I'd stay away from the whole "look at the bad things secular governments did" argument. Your grasp of history isn't sufficient to back it up and we don't have the rest of our lives to outline all the nasty things done in the name of this god or that god or these gods.

[Flashpoint]

Trying to convince me of the existance of God is like trying to convince me in the existance of Santa Claus. We both know they don't exist, it's just that one of us can't admit it because they are worried about not getting any presents.

If your belief in Santa Claus makes you do good things, then go for it. But don't lie to me or my kids about it.

As for Elton John, he would probably be better off without organized religion. As a homosexual he is pretty badly picked on by them. Much like the Palestinians would be better off without Israel, or cats would be better off without dogs. Doesn't mean we all would be, or it is a goal we should pursue.

Can't say I blame him for speaking out though.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

Trying to convince me of the existance of God is like trying to convince me in the existance of Santa Claus. We both know they don't exist, it's just that one of us can't admit it because they are worried about not getting any presents.

LOL.. well said sir.. well said.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by kermitology

Hey CBA.. question for you regarding your Athiesm - murder argument..

What about the crusades? One might be led to believe that the crusades are a very good example of the power of religion to cause havoc and destruction. I mean.. they were called for by the pope and all. All in the name of recapturing Jerusalem from the Muslims right?

My argument wasn't that Atheism leads to mass murder. I was arguing that the only examples of atheistic governments are examples of horribly bad governments. It's easy to say that religion is responsible for every bad thing that has happen to man. The fact is that Atheism is a faith system and has a poorer track record than any other religion. We have never had a bloodier century than the 20th century and most of the blood shed was done by Atheists. Perhaps if an atheistic government ever comes to power without bloodshed and produces an Utopian society than Cheese will have an argument.

As for the Crusades: the Catholics killed more Christians than they ever did Muslims. Read the "Foxes book of Martyrs" or "the Trail of Blood". Their totals probably exceed the totals of Atheistic governments but, it took them a lot longer to put up those numbers than the Atheistic governments of the 20th century.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Come on now. You are quoting the bible and at the same time accusing someone else of using propaganda?

At least you know where my quote came from. Cheese quoted some supposed Christian source and pertends that they represent what Christians think. He either doesn't have the will or the ability to even put a name by the quote or explain how this person represents most Christian's world view.

I in fact showed from history that the first place where their was true freedom of religion was the baptist colony of Rhode Island. The freedom of conscience would have allowed for the free expression of atheism as well. Since not believing there is a God is a religious belief.

If I were you I'd stay away from the whole "look at the bad things secular governments did" argument. Your grasp of history isn't sufficient to back it up and we don't have the rest of our lives to outline all the nasty things done in the name of this god or that god or these gods.

Yes well how hard could that be? It wasn't until the 20th century that we find States which embraced atheism. So if you choose you could attribute everything bad that has happened in this world to religion. O except for communism which is because of a bad ideology; Right? Such hypocrisy!

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

Trying to convince me of the existence of God is like trying to convince me in the existence of Santa Claus.

Trying to convince you of the existence of God is like trying to explain to a blind man what the colour blue looks like.