Ongoing Residential Schools Tragedy Discussion

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by BoLevi

In order for it to be "theft", we need to have some sort of bar regarding ownership. I don't think a tiny number of people can setup shop at a river and then declare they own a whole continent. The people who were living off the land in Canada at the time had nothing even remotely resembling what we would consider a nation-state.

Just because someone laid eyes on a patch of land, doesn't mean they own it.

I'll just leave this quote here from the Calgary Wikipedia page, and you tell me if the "bar" is high enough for Indigenous to have claim:

The Calgary area was inhabited by pre-Clovis people whose presence has been traced back at least 11,000 years.[35] The area has been inhabited by the Niitsitapi (Blackfoot Confederacy; Siksika, Kainai, Piikani), îyârhe Nakoda, the Tsuut'ina First Nations peoples and Métis Nation, Region 3. As Mayor Naheed Nenshi (A'paistootsiipsii; Iitiya) describes, "There have always been people here. In Biblical times there were people here. For generations beyond number, people have come here to this land, drawn here by the water. They come here to hunt and fish; to trade; to live; to love; to have great victories; to taste bitter disappointment; but above all to engage in that very human act of building community."

Captain Brisbois thought this place was great too, so he marched in the troops and European colonialists have been now been here since 1875.

So who has "claim" to this land?

Holy cow are you ever being obtuse and ignorant.

[jayswin]

This thread is hitting peak privileged white Canadian discussion the last page or so. Yikes.

What right do they have to the land they lived on first, they should be happy we brought them along with our destiny after we moved in!!!!

OMG, we could be changing DOZENS of names of things. DO YOU WANT THAT!!!! I mean look how horrible these people were, are we to change those names too!!!

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The Famous Five were champion of eugenics, and supported legislation that saw thousands of indigenous women, “imbeciles,” etc. sterilized. Do we change the names of all the schools named after Nellie McClung, Emily Murphy, and the rest of the Famous Five? Close the Famous Five Centre at Heritage Park?

I'll bet this whataboutism post must have sounded like a real zinger to you when you were composing it in your head. "Haha, gotcha now!"

[jayswin]

As depressing as these threads can be though, one beautiful thing I've heard a few times in here is that kids are starting to be properly taught about our Indigenous peoples and ugly history.

As someone who went to school in the 90's/2000's that legit almost brings tears to your eyes to know that we will probably see a much kinder, compassionate generation approaching our Indigenous population in the coming decades. Rather than the status quo of explaining everything away at best and hurling excessive racism at them at worst.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by jayswin

As depressing as these threads can be though, one beautiful thing I've heard a few times in here is that kids are starting to be properly taught about our Indigenous peoples and ugly history.

As someone who went to school in the 90's/2000's that legit almost brings tears to your eyes to know that we will probably see a much kinder, compassionate generation approaching our Indigenous population in the coming decades. Rather than the status quo of explaining everything away at best and hurling excessive racism at them at worst.

That's great that it's taught and the atrocities explain. "This is an incident that happened in our country and this is why it was wrong."

But I don't like it when it's treated like a white supremacy issue. It's a people issue. Indigenous people were/are crapped on everywhere in the world. An Africa, in Asia, in South America, everywhere. Not to mention China right now.

[_Q_]

I don't see anything being done to right the wrongs of our past. Quite frankly, I don't think anything can be done.

All that is happening is a few empty gestures. Renaming schools, flying flags at half mast, ringing church bells, Facebook posts, etc. All in an effort to make us non-indigenous Canadians feel better and to restore our self righteous place in the world.

There will be calls to "learn from our past, so we don't allow it to happen in the future." Yet we sit idly by allowing similar atrocities to happen in our own back yard and around the world. It's garbage. Our society is garbage.

[BMStrikesAgain]

The posts stating "we have to be careful/erase history " etc are so cringe.. that's not happening. And Chinese street names sound similar to Calgary ones.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Just that we shouldn't erase all history. Canadians need to know what happened back then. Sure remove the name from things, just don't erase it out of all history books. Maybe naming things after people is a bad idea to begin with.

To be clear, I'm not aware of one person suggesting that things be erased from history books. Indeed, most people (UCP excepted of course) advocate for the opposite.

Originally Posted by GirlySports

If you've ever been to China, no streets are named after people. They're named like Construction, Harmony, Friendly, Help. or other cities, like we have Edmonton Trail.

I think China has the best street names in the world. But it isn't quite true that no streets are named after people. For example, I know of several Zhongshan Roads.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I don't see anything being done to right the wrongs of our past. Quite frankly, I don't think anything can be done.

All that is happening is a few empty gestures. Renaming schools, flying flags at half mast, ringing church bells, Facebook posts, etc. All in an effort to make us non-indigenous Canadians feel better and to restore our self righteous place in the world.

There will be calls to "learn from our past, so we don't allow it to happen in the future." Yet we sit idly by allowing similar atrocities to happen in our own back yard and around the world. It's garbage. Our society is garbage.

Yeah, if renaming things is step one of one, we have failed miserably.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The Famous Five were champion of eugenics, and supported legislation that saw thousands of indigenous women, “imbeciles,” etc. sterilized. Do we change the names of all the schools named after Nellie McClung, Emily Murphy, and the rest of the Famous Five? Close the Famous Five Centre at Heritage Park?

Is that eugenics and sterilization stuff prominently displayed on a plaque on those schools? Would that be better for you?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I don't see anything being done to right the wrongs of our past. Quite frankly, I don't think anything can be done.

All that is happening is a few empty gestures. Renaming schools, flying flags at half mast, ringing church bells, Facebook posts, etc. All in an effort to make us non-indigenous Canadians feel better and to restore our self righteous place in the world.

There will be calls to "learn from our past, so we don't allow it to happen in the future." Yet we sit idly by allowing similar atrocities to happen in our own back yard and around the world. It's garbage. Our society is garbage.

It's not. One of the things that is longed for is for the rest of Canada to recognize and acknowledge these events took place. When we were in Inuvuk in the library an elderly lady sat at the table with us, and passed a note. "I was in a residential school." She couldn't speak, but my wife had a conversation, the best they could. She didn't want an apology, just for us to know. My wife hugged her, and they both cried a little. That's what healing looks like.

These aren't empty gestures. Just look around here, we are all discussing it. Acknowledging it happened. That's a huge step. Absolutely, there is loads of work to be done, but getting people onside is step 1. Brushing these name changes off as nothing is the worst way to react.

The TRC definition of reconciliation:
“. . . Reconciliation is about establishing and maintaining a mutually respectful relationship between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal peoples in this country. In order for that to happen, there has to be awareness of the past, an acknowledgement of the harm that has been inflicted, atonement for the causes, and action to change behaviour.”

https://www.ictinc.ca/blog/what-reco...what-it-is-not

This is where we are now. It's a good thing.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Makarov

I think China has the best street names in the world. But it isn't quite true that no streets are named after people. For example, I know of several Zhongshan Roads.

In Latin America, some major streets are named after important historical dates.

Ex. Av. 6 de Deciembre, Av. 10 de Agosto, in Quito.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

We have to be careful about renaming stuff and history, Although I have no problem with removing Langevin School. It probably should have been removed when the bridge was renamed.


But careful because this is a time machine that only goes one way. You can go back and judge people back then using today's standards, but that person back then never gets the opportunity to change his/her behavior using today's standards.



Now residential schools and removing kids from homes and indoctrinating them was wrong using any standard past or present so that seems clear to me anyways. There should probably be a review of everything anyways, not just have these things come up due to the discovery of a mass grave.

You can absolutely judge whether people deserve a statue or naming honour using current norms. Naming stuff after people is just dumb though. I think we should just end that practice starting now.

[stone hands]

renaming monuments and streets isn't erasing history - we arent striking their names from the record books and pretending they never existed. if anything, removing these peoples names and telling the real story of who they are and what they did - not just the good stuff in they wrote down in the history books - is the exact opposite of erasing history. to see it any other way is baffling

[Flacker]

What has the current Liberal government done to improve the living conditions of the indigenous people of Canada?

Would this not be a good time to finally spend the money to take these communities out of third-world living conditions? I am a lot more embarrassed about this current problem, than the actions of others decades ago. This is something we can change, we can't change the past.

What are we doing today? Name changes and flag flying doesn't get these people the clean water and basic sanitation, that should be a fundamental Canadian right.

[CliffFletcher]

There’s no cheaper source of moral gratification than broadcasting how we’re more enlightened than people were in the past. What does it actually accomplish?

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Makarov

To be clear, I'm not aware of one person suggesting that things be erased from history books. Indeed, most people (UCP excepted of course) advocate for the opposite.


I think China has the best street names in the world. But it isn't quite true that no streets are named after people. For example, I know of several Zhongshan Roads.

Zhongshan might be the only one. I'm surprised the Communists didn't rename it.

Originally Posted by BMStrikesAgain

The posts stating "we have to be careful/erase history " etc are so cringe.. that's not happening. And Chinese street names sound similar to Calgary ones.

Calgary has lots. Deerfoot, Crowchild, John Laurie, MacLeod, McKnight, Barlow, Anderson, Brisebois

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

There’s no cheaper source of moral gratification than broadcasting how we’re more enlightened than people were in the past. What does it actually accomplish?

Oh, do you think we're getting moral gratification out of this? Hardly. I feel ashamed for not understanding what indigenous people faced in these schools and for my prejudices while growing up. I want to understand what happened and I'm motivated to do what it takes to begin to atone.

For you to think we're getting our jollies off this is beyond weird.

[peter12]

From a political perspective, there is probably nothing more relieving than to see these kinds of surface level responses.

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

There’s no cheaper source of moral gratification than broadcasting how we’re more enlightened than people were in the past. What does it actually accomplish?

Improved living conditions and quality of life for the Indigenous People of Canada? The end of blatantly racist policies? Human growth and self-improvement? What is there to lose?

We can certainly strive to be better than previous generations on this issue.