Escalating Tensions in Palestinian Territories

[gvitaly]

^

So, here is your totally naïve, armchair response to that comment- don't want we want people less emotionally tied to this situation to be proposing solutions?

Let more rational thought win the day?

The situation you described is terrifying, and important context. But AFC is proposing a solution for the long game, which in his view, will reduce this very situation from occurring.

Again, I get I don't have the experience you are portraying and that indeed makes me naïve.

I wouldn't mind that, if the solution wasn't just let one side keep firing. Do you realize that if Hamas knew for certain that Israel would hold fire if there were women and children at the launch site, they would put them at every launch site.
A while ago I saw a video published by idf of a terrorist running for his life, from the Israeli forces. As he runs away he runs by a boy. He was probably 6 or 7 years old. As he runs by he picks him up by his school bag and carries him with him. You know why? because he knew the soldiers won't shoot him with a kid in his arms.
Now it could be propaganda, and I would have a hard time finding that video, as I have seen it something like 10 years ago... but those situations do exist

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Spoken like a person that has never experienced what it is to be under rocket fire. You feel the fear, you hear the siren, the explosions. People that are depending on you are also scared, your children for example. That is if you get to be with them instead of being recalled to the military as a backup force. Then it's your wife alone with the kids. You feel helpless in that situation, you don't care who you should hurt or why... you feel the need to protect your own.
Tell that person he should remain calm. Tell that to the family of the dead boy(who was in a bomb shelter, yet still died from shrapnel making its way through.
People don't stay calm when fired upon, they panic! The feeling of helplessness leads to hatred and it's an endless cycle.

In that vein, try being a 16 year old Palestinian boy living in Gaza. Perhaps a few years ago, you watched your 8 year old brother get shot while playing soccer on the beach. Or maybe your family home was bombed without warning, killing your mother, father and grandparents.

Try telling that kid that the situation is actually his fault. That the terrorist organization that promises him retribution, justice and dignity are the bad guys. Tell him that the people that killed his family, that impose blockades on him and steal land from his friends in the West Bank are the good guys and all they want is peace.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by _Q_

In that vein, try being a 16 year old Palestinian boy living in Gaza. Perhaps a few years ago, you watched your 8 year old brother get shot while playing soccer on the beach. Or maybe your family home was bombed without warning, killing your mother, father and grandparents.

Try telling that kid that the situation is actually his fault. That the terrorist organization that promises him retribution, justice and dignity are the bad guys. Tell him that the people that killed his family, that impose blockades on him and steal land from his friends in the West Bank are the good guys and all they want is peace.

That's why I keep saying that both sides are to blame for the situation. You try to make it into a competition who suffers more... both sides suffer it doesn't mean you get to disregard one side.

I completely understand why it's so easy for Hamas to recruit 10-15 year olds... They are easily influenced, and it's much easier to blame everything that is wrong on an enemy that simply wants to kill you, killed someone you know etc. I try to understand both sides, you try to justify one side, and that's why I am saying it's vicious cycle because it happens on both sides...
That said, there is no way that when fired upon one side would just take it. That's what I'm trying to say. You keep trying to justify violence from one side while only blaming the other. Would this whole thing have started if Hamas had not fired rockets? It keeps coming down to this...

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Mull

Well, I first wrote this:

I don't know, because you didn't quote a specific example. I have in this thread, and feel the "explanation" was a justification. You talk in vague points without quoting, so you leave the reader to assume.

But then I realized, you wrote your post in a way that is talking about everyone here, and I have quoted someone who in my view was using an explanation to pass all the buck off Hamas, hence, justifying their action.

So yes, I stand by my point, and am telling you, you are wrong.

Great, we’ll agree to disagree. I think you read the post you’re referring to wrong and lept in your reaction. But you’re free to do that. Doesn’t mean explanations are justifications, and that applies across the board. Justifications are justifications. Up to you to know the difference.

Originally Posted by gvitaly

That said, there is no way that when fired upon one side would just take it. That's what I'm trying to say. You keep trying to justify violence from one side while only blaming the other. Would this whole thing have started if Hamas had not fired rockets? It keeps coming down to this...

This is part of the issue, no doubt. How far do you want to go back? Would this have started if Israel settlers hadn’t moved to kick Palestinians out of their homes? We can go back further and further and arbitrarily stop at any action from Israel or Hamas all day. Would it have happened if they didn’t fire rockets? Let’s say no. Then is it ok to ask what would have happened to the Palestinian people who were under threat of violence and eviction from Israel? Would that have been ok? This certainly wasn’t. I don’t see how that would have been.

So then we consider the scale of reaction. You would agree that firing rockets is an unnecessary escalation to the situation, right? Comparing the scale of Israel’s response to Hamas’s firing of rockets, is this not also an unnecessary escalation to the situation? How far is too far? And is it not OK to hold a “liberal democracy” to a higher standard than a terrorist organisation?

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

That's why I keep saying that both sides are to blame for the situation. You try to make it into a competition who suffers more... both sides suffer it doesn't mean you get to disregard one side.

I completely understand why it's so easy for Hamas to recruit 10-15 year olds... They are easily influenced, and it's much easier to blame everything that is wrong on an enemy that simply wants to kill you, killed someone you know etc. I try to understand both sides, you try to justify one side, and that's why I am saying it's vicious cycle because it happens on both sides...
That said, there is no way that when fired upon one side would just take it. That's what I'm trying to say. You keep trying to justify violence from one side while only blaming the other. Would this whole thing have started if Hamas had not fired rockets? It keeps coming down to this...

So this latest conflict started with Hamas spontaneously launching rockets at Israel, not when Palestinians were removed from their homes in Sheikh Jarrah?

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Great, we’ll agree to disagree. I think you read the post you’re referring to wrong and lept in your reaction. But you’re free to do that. Doesn’t mean explanations are justifications, and that applies across the board. Justifications are justifications. Up to you to know the difference.



This is part of the issue, no doubt. How far do you want to go back? Would this have started if Israel settlers hadn’t moved to kick Palestinians out of their homes? We can go back further and further and arbitrarily stop at any action from Israel or Hamas all day. Would it have happened if they didn’t fire rockets? Let’s say no. Then is it ok to ask what would have happened to the Palestinian people who were under threat of violence and eviction from Israel? Would that have been ok? This certainly wasn’t. I don’t see how that would have been.

So then we consider the scale of reaction. You would agree that firing rockets is an unnecessary escalation to the situation, right? Comparing the scale of Israel’s response to Hamas’s firing of rockets, is this not also an unnecessary escalation to the situation? How far is too far? And is it not OK to hold a “liberal democracy” to a higher standard than a terrorist organisation?

oh what the heck lets go all the way to biblical times how about King Solomon?

[Mull]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Great, we’ll agree to disagree. I think you read the post you’re referring to wrong and lept in your reaction. But you’re free to do that. Doesn’t mean explanations are justifications, and that applies across the board. Justifications are justifications. Up to you to know the difference.

You write as if an explanation can't be an justification for ones actions, that they are different words, with different meanings, and therefore, all must be mutually exclusive.

It doesn't always matter if is intent is there, but there are people in this thread, who by placing the reason for Hamas action solely on the feet of Israel are minimizing the actions of a terrorist's organization, and its horrible.

As I said, its great and easy for you to make sweeping generic statements without the effort of quoting anyone, but it doesn't make it right.

You want to agree to disagree?

Sure, I think you're scrambling to defend a position you may realize was not well thought out, and puts you in the awkward position of trying to explain why it doesn't actually defend a terrorist organization, because, well , if you actually read the posts you were defending, you would realize you were wrong.

You think I don't understand the English language.

I accept that trade in a heartbeat.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by _Q_

So this latest conflict started with Hamas spontaneously launching rockets at Israel, not when Palestinians were removed from their homes in Sheikh Jarrah?

Hamas constantly launches rockets at Israel. Since 2003, Hamas has fired thousands of rockets into Israel. Last year was fairly light with only 70 rockets and dozens of balloon explosives sent into Israel. The constant attacks are one of the reasons Israel justifies the blockade on Gaza and the occupation of the West Bank.

I am not taking sides, I think both or deplorable, but this has been tit-for-tat for a long time.

Hamas rockets have also killed several Palestinians over the years because their accuracy sucks.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by _Q_

So this latest conflict started with Hamas spontaneously launching rockets at Israel, not when Palestinians were removed from their homes in Sheikh Jarrah?

Well we must have read different news sources, as that is not the reason for the rocket fire. There's Hamas' ultimatum about releasing all the rioters that were jailed in the conflicts. It was also about leaving Al Aqsa and Sheikh Jarrah. The ruling about those 8 homes being evicted was ruled long before the current round of riots has started. This round of riots did happen between protestors and police in the neighborhood, but it has a lot to do with Ramadan and general frustrations.
Now I have no idea why the court decided to evict those families, but people get screwed over by the justice system all the time... They get screwed over by it everywhere. They don't start a war because of it. What's the line people love to use? It's not the best justice system but it's the best we got. Now for me it was simply a convenient excuse to stay relevant. It was also a good excuse for Hamas to distract from the cancellation of the parliamentary elections for the first time.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Spoken like a person that has never experienced what it is to be under rocket fire. You feel the fear, you hear the siren, the explosions. People that are depending on you are also scared, your children for example. That is if you get to be with them instead of being recalled to the military as a backup force. Then it's your wife alone with the kids. You feel helpless in that situation, you don't care who you should hurt or why... you feel the need to protect your own.
Tell that person he should remain calm. Tell that to the family of the dead boy(who was in a bomb shelter, yet still died from shrapnel making its way through.
People don't stay calm when fired upon, they panic! The feeling of helplessness leads to hatred and it's an endless cycle.

I've been blown up by the IRA twice (close enough to be knocked on my arse and covered in broken glass), been evacuated from numerous stores and buses and lost a few friends on active service in Crossmaglen

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I've been blown up by the IRA twice (close enough to be knocked on my arse and covered in broken glass), been evacuated from numerous stores and buses and lost a few friends on active service in Crossmaglen

So you know how hard it is to make rational decisions during such an action. I'm sure you can relate to what I described then.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

So you know how hard it is to make rational decisions during such an action. I'm sure you can relate to what I described then.

I always knew my side caused the issues, that my side was in the wrong, everyone in the UK did, we all knew we had to find a solution that gave the Catholics a reason to want peace even though we could kick the snot out of them any time we wanted, the arabs will still be angry and murderous in 500 or 2000 years time, this never ends and it destroys both sides

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Mull

Sure, I think you're scrambling to defend a position you may realize was not well thought out, and puts you in the awkward position of trying to explain why it doesn't actually defend a terrorist organization, because, well , if you actually read the posts you were defending, you would realize you were wrong.

You think I don't understand the English language.

I accept that trade in a heartbeat.

No, I think you understand the English language just fine.

But if thinking all this makes you feel better, you’re free to believe it. It’s really just a matter of not gaining much by having a debate with you. But sure, scrambling, didn’t read the posts, I secretly know I’m wrong. Whatever works man. Agree to disagree.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I always knew my side caused the issues, that my side was in the wrong, everyone in the UK did, we all knew we had to find a solution that gave the Catholics a reason to want peace even though we could kick the snot out of them any time we wanted, the arabs will still be angry and murderous in 500 or 2000 years time, this never ends and it destroys both sides

So the family of the friends you lost, just carried on? They just said it's our fault, so we're okay with it? I have a very hard time believing it.



I agree that the conflict has to stop, but it takes both sides.The only reason that the right wing government is elected in Israel is because people are scared. They hope that the right wing government would actually defend the citizens, so it's a requirement to do something. Anyways, I don't see it as a solution as I don't see it working with the cultures in the middle east. Anything that is interpreted as weakness is simply used against you in that climate. A decision not to retaliate would just let the Hamas propaganda shout about how mighty it is and how Israel is afraid to do anything about it.

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Now I have no idea why the court decided to evict those families, but people get screwed over by the justice system all the time... They get screwed over by it everywhere. They don't start a war because of it.

OK, I can tell you why the court decided to evict those families.
Because they were living there for free for decades, even though it was owned by Jewish families since the 1800's. Jordan has provided records for the court proving the case of Jewish ownership of the houses in question, and the Israeli court gave the Palestinian occupants an opportunity to stay and pay rent, and they outright refused to. So they ordered an eviction.

If this happened in Calgary (obviously not the same kind of acrimonious history here), would you start a war over families being evicted from houses that they don't own and refuse to pay rent on??

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

oh what the heck lets go all the way to biblical times how about King Solomon?

Obviously a joke but seriously. There’s no sense in trying to pick a starting point and asking “would THIS have happened if THAT hadn’t happened?” because you can almost always go a few days or weeks prior and pick a new start date.

This isn’t an issue of who started it. At least, it shouldn’t be. Because that’s fruitless on both sides.

[gvitaly]

^ I agree, and that's why I think that whenever something switches from talk to violence both sides have already failed. Any type of violence only helps the extremist sects on each side to say "I told you so... They just want to kill us all/take all our land/rape all our women"(you pick).

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

So the family of the friends you lost, just carried on? They just said it's our fault, so we're okay with it? I have a very hard time believing it.



I agree that the conflict has to stop, but it takes both sides.The only reason that the right wing government is elected in Israel is because people are scared. They hope that the right wing government would actually defend the citizens, so it's a requirement to do something. Anyways, I don't see it as a solution as I don't see it working with the cultures in the middle east. Anything that is interpreted as weakness is simply used against you in that climate. A decision not to retaliate would just let the Hamas propaganda shout about how mighty it is and how Israel is afraid to do anything about it.

Both my friends were in the army and killed in seperate incidents, both families were heart broken but it was a fact of life in the UK if you joined up, the worst outpouring of rage against the IRA I ever remember was when they blew up Sefton and killed 7 other horses in the Hyde Park bombing of 1982, 4 soldiers were also killed but I couldnt name one of them, but Sefton the horse is etched into my mind, it was the killing of the horses that outraged the UK, I will grant you though we Brits are really weird that way.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Envitro

OK, I can tell you why the court decided to evict those families.
Because they were living there for free for decades, even though it was owned by Jewish families since the 1800's. Jordan has provided records for the court proving the case of Jewish ownership of the houses in question, and the Israeli court gave the Palestinian occupants an opportunity to stay and pay rent, and they outright refused to. So they ordered an eviction.

If this happened in Calgary (obviously not the same kind of acrimonious history here), would you start a war over families being evicted from houses that they don't own and refuse to pay rent on??

would you evict them if you knew it might cause a war and would certainly get people killed?

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

would you evict them if you knew it might cause a war and would certainly get people killed?

I would, because it's a dangerous slope otherwise. Again then any rulling that someone doesn't agree with can be circumvented with enough violence. Is that something that I would want? probably not.


Edit: for me that's somewhat like the drug cartels in Latin America operate. They know they are better equipped than the police so they can dictate the decision making. No one touches them because it will be war otherwise. That's not a reality I want.