[PGT] Flames lose 4-1 to Winnipeg; lose Ryan to injury

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

Sample size of Juniors and the 3 pre-season games is pretty small and obviously not against fully NHL opposition but Zary did have several breakaways across those games. Although, you could argue those were due to strong two-way plays rather than pure speed.

Slower players can get breakaways - see Tkachuk last game. They sneak behind coverage and get a pass, or bump the puck past a flat footed d-man. What they can't do is beat defenders to the outside like McDavid and Mackinnon do on the regular.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

the circumstances are different this time because there's nowhere else for Zary to play. Is it better for his development to not play at all?


IMO it wouldn't hurt to give him 7 games. (Although, in Sam's case he played really well in his rookie season, so maybe there's a risk to that too)

I don't want to see any kids in the lineup until the environment improves. Ni way you throw a 19 year old into a negative environment.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Infinit47

And Leivo in OT.

Ward really has his favourites (Lucic, Leivo, Nordstrom for example) who seem to be beyond any form of accountability.

I didn't play a ton of hockey growing up. But I played enough to encounter one good coach and one terrible coach. The team played twice as hard for the good coach.

Yup.

You show me a team that doesn't have confidence in their coach, or their systems, (or their goalie), and I will show you a team that looks like they lack heart.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Almost 20 percent into the season and the PPG pace for our forwards who have a point (Simon and Nordstrom have no points in 14 combined games) is as follows over a regular 82 game season

Nordstrom 0 goals, 0 assists, 0 points
Simon 0 goals, 0 assists, 0 points
Leivo - 0 goals, 8 assists - 8 points
Ryan - 0 goals, 8 assists - 8 points
Bennett - 0 goals, 9 assists - 9 points
Mangiapane - 16 goals, 8 assists - 24 points
Lucic - 16 goals, 8 assists - 24 points
Backlund - 16 goals, 16 assists for 32 points
Dube - 12 goals, 23 assists for 35 points

Overall our bottom nine forwards (out of the 13 who have played a game) have 7 goals and 9 assists in 80 games played this season. That averages out to roughly 57 goals and 82 assists for the bottom 8 forwards in the lineup over an 82 game season. This is just a poorly constructed team

For reference, in 2013/2014 our combined scoring for all the forwards outside our top 4 point producing forwards was 87 goals and 132 assists over 82 games. It seems like this year's team will be unlikely to be as productive amongst the forwards not in their top 4 as the team that Brad inherited.

Or they are being managed the wrong way. I don't think even the biggest naysayers would have expected these types of numbers.

The players aren't this bad. The team is.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by The Familia

How about that players only meeting they had a little while ago? How has that worked out for them? I remember a few posters going on about how much the players care and that it was good they had the meeting because it would fire them up and turn the season around. Well they have become worse than before the meeting. Zero heart or effort on this team.

I’m pointing my finger at Matthew now. Nice big fat raise and he still can’t elevate his game to the next level. He is supposed to put this team on his back and spark them. He is a glorified agitator with decent hands. His goal and point totals have never really dictated the salary he is making. We protect him here because he is on our team but the reality is that he is a greasy cheapshot artist. He disappears when the going gets really tough. I expect more from our future captain amd right now he is not delivering.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

To me he looks a lot like his dad who was kind of a talented jerk that didn't win anything over his career in the NHL as he was the poster boy for captaining teams to first round exits. I don't see anything in his game that has moved the needle for the Flames outside of adding the reputation that the Flames are a dirty team. The bigger a pest he becomes, the worst he plays on the ice and he's not accomplished anything in the playoffs like his dad. We talk about Johnny leaving when his contract is up but really I think this guy will easily bolt to wherever he can make the most money and if it be the Rangers or any US market I just can't see any loyalty here with him. Maybe he should be part of a complete upheaval this roster requires.

I agree about Tkachuk. These past few years the pressure has been on Gaudreau and Monahan to deliver, but expectations have been placed that Tkachuk is going to be the leader of this team, and be one of, if not it's best player. But Tkachuk hasn't progressed since he's gotten that contract, and has stagnated in his development. Either expectations were misplaced on him, or the organization/media needs to put more pressure on him to grow and perform.

But I don't want to put too much fault on the players, since I believe the major reason why the roster as a whole is underdelivering is because of the coaching. They're not playing a system that works for them.

I'm pretty much done with Treliving at this point since he's refusal to actually hire a head coach that knows what they're doing is stunting the team.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Or they are being managed the wrong way. I don't think even the biggest naysayers would have expected these types of numbers.

The players aren't this bad. The team is.

That is fair, with a very good coach this is probably the 9th or 10th best team in the NHL. With Ward they are probably the 20th best team but they have a chance to make the playoffs because the Sens are definitely worse and the Canucks and Oilers may be worse. I do not think this team is elite though, regardless of who the coach is. I mean we grabbed a 26 year old Simon, who has never scored in any league and thought he could be a first line winger. Elite teams don’t usually do that.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by 868904

Gaudreau
Mangiapane
Dube
Ryan
Simon

42% of the forwards are small and weak. Some of them compete hard but at the end of the day, it don't matter how big your heart is, you aren't overpowering a bigger equally skilled player.

This team has been lacking "size and skill" for years. Along with the coaching decision, this has been Tre's biggest weakness. He loves his small speedy forwards. They might be fine against small or average size teams, but whenever they come up against teams with big and skilled players, they can never win.

They got lucky with Winnipeg last year cause they lost two of their biggest and skilled forwards. Then they ran into another big team in Dallas. This year, they've been outplayed by the equally skilled but bigger Canadiens and the more skilled and generally bigger Leafs and the more skilled and bigger Jets.

Keep Gaudreau, Dube and Mangiapane, upgrade the size and skill on Ryan and Simon. Sure the latter two are decent players, but you have too many small players.

It's pretty easy to disrupt the Flames momentum, teams just get harder and more physical with them, that's the secret to beating the Flames.

If Ryan is out, please don't bring in another smurf in Phillips. I like the kid, but this team is just too small. Bring in Ruzicka.

Have you even looked at some of rosters of this league? Tampa just won the Cup last summer with a very undersized group of players. Half of Montreal’s forwards are under 5’11” and they’re right up near the top of the division. Also, most of those forwards you’ve listed really haven’t been full time Flames for that long.

I wouldn’t mind seeing your explanation on the failed 2017-18, 2016-17 and 2015-16 seasons when only one or two Flames players were “small and weak.” If anything these “smurfs” have given the Flames more success then they’ve seen in prior years. #1 seed in the West & a playoff/play-in series win against the Jets.