I think it's time Treliving starts taking some serious heat

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Sorry, how does this make senses whatsoever?

Gulutzen was a head coach previously in the NHL, he was an NHL assistant coach at the time of his hiring. This was a pretty standard hiring, Gulutzen is a young guy but I'm not understanding what you guys are seeing here.

There was a plethora of candidates, Gulutzen was one of them. Not seeing the smartest-guys-in-the-room stuff you are.

Dunno if combing through the staff of fellow basement dwellers is a recipe for success. If he was highly touted and came from a winning franchise there would certainly be more to be optimistic about. He didn't do great in Dallas and his time in Vancouver was so so, judging by others comments about their 28th PP and it being his responsibility.

[ricardodw]

I didn't know whether this thought deserved its own thread But I ended up putting here.

Basically motivated by seeing the Jets call up young prospect after young prospect and remain relatively competitive I wondered why the Flames prospect pool was not able to do the same.

So for the Canadian teams I created a list of the players that were under 25 that have played at least 1 NHL game for their team as well as the same list for players 30 years and older. To the Canadian teams I added the top and bottom 2 non-Canadian teams to the mix.... NYR, Chi, Car, Arz.

The results were very surprising, going against the generally accepted theory that the Flames were a young team and suffering through development pains

The chart caterogized the Number of players in the age groups and the total # of games that particular cohort have played

under 25 games
wpg 16 181
Car 14 154
Tor 12 141
edm 10 138
Arz 13 137
van 11 124
NYR 10 118
cal 9 109
Mtl 8 88
chi 6 79
Ott 9 78

30+ games30
cal 9 104
Mtl 7 102
chi 8 98
van 7 96
wpg 6 74
Car 6 72
Ott 5 70
Arz 6 61
NYR 4 53
Tor 4 38
edm 3 34

IMO this is an absolutely disastrous profile for a rebuilding team. It looks like a profile of a long winning team that is hanging on to older players at the expense of youth because of past glory.

Burke and Treliving need to be reviewed right now and held accountable for their management of this teams resources/assets.

It is bad enough that the Oilers are all in in rebuild mode but Vancouver has more young games and less 30+ games than the Flames. and they haven't yet pulled off the rebuild bandage with the Sedins.

[Brick]

Brian Burke needs to go. The game has passed him by.

[genetic_phreek]

Personally I'm not liking some of the moves Treliving has done. In particular the re-signings

At the time of the Gio re-signing I didn't like it, right now I don't like it, I'll probably hate it in a few years.

I made fun of the Oilers to signing Hall, Nuge, Eberle for signing guys so early after coming off ELC's.

We sign Monahan and Gaudreau for 6+ coming off ELC's. You could still argue for Gaudreau as he is one of the most dynamic players in the league.

Now we are a cap team in virtually last place in the league.

[saillias]

I'm just baffled how he and the org went through this extensive analysis of coaching and rigorous selection process and the coach he decided on turned out like this. Perhaps there was something fundamentally wrong with his process in the first place.

Or we just got unlucky because we're Flames fans and we're always doomed to have things not work out

[ResAlien]

Is there a chance our players just aren't as good as we all thought and Hartley's one playoff run was the absolute pinnacle of what they would be able to achieve? I mean they were crap last year too with him as the coach right?

[genetic_phreek]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Is there a chance our players just aren't as good as we all thought and Hartley's one playoff run was the absolute pinnacle of what they would be able to achieve? I mean they were crap last year too with him as the coach right?

This is exactly what I think happened. Last 4 years we have drafted 6th overall, 4th overall, playoffs so traded for Dougie, 6th overall, and whatever we finish this season.

I don't see how we're "trending" and shouldn't the rebuild be close to complete?

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by genetic_phreek

This is exactly what I think happened. Last 4 years we have drafted 6th overall, 4th overall, playoffs so traded for Dougie, 6th overall, and whatever we finish this season.

I don't see how we're "trending" and shouldn't the rebuild be close to complete?

There is no defined timeline for a re-build. The fact is the Flames are still missing some critical pieces
- Long-term #1
- #3/4 dman
- Top line winger

So based on the construction and makeup of the team alone, as well as the results, it would seem that the re-build is not complete.

It will probably take longer because of how long the organization stubbornly tried to win now. We are paying the long-term price now for that short-term thinking.

You can also add in the inability to extract any quality assets from the last core that was in place: Kipper/Iginla/Regehr/Bouwmeester - the organization netted next to nothing from those guys.

So it is gonna take a while.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by saillias

I'm just baffled how he and the org went through this extensive analysis of coaching and rigorous selection process and the coach he decided on turned out like this. Perhaps there was something fundamentally wrong with his process in the first place.

Or we just got unlucky because we're Flames fans and we're always doomed to have things not work out

I was shocked as well at the time of the hiring. I have been trying to give him the benefit of the doubt but this group is now well past the growing pains phase of learning a new system etc. You'd think that the process would have been much quicker had they truly been settled on hiring GG in the first place.

What's scary now is that the team is one more bad contract away from being screwed for another 5 years.

[ricardodw]

I couldn't watch it right after the stupid Rangers game... but watched the GG interview last night. I wonder what part of the "process" covers commitment and focus.

GG was comfortable with his position as assistant coach in Vancouver and was/is not committed to the Flames as as his highest priority. It sound like the Flames gave GG extra points for being self aware and that he wasn't really ready for this job.

The fact that his family was openly and vocally against him taking this job and that his family is high priority to him should have been caught in the process.


It really sounds as though he won't spend very much time in mourning when the Flames fire him.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Unbelievable, ricardodw. A new low has been hit on your mind reading scale.

[djsFlames]

This team needs two reliable stay at home d-men in its d-corps.

Hamilton, Giordano and Brodie are all touted for offensive ability, but it often comes at the loss of something at the other end. Now they're too fragile/afraid to do what they're able to in the offensive zone cause every mistake is going in the back of our net. And it appears the system is holding them back a bit as well. Kulak looks to be a guy in the mould of a Brodie-lite and Wideman, Jokipakka and Engelland aren't known as shutdown guys either. We need a couple ####ing Regehr types that'll crunch anything that comes over that blue line and we've needed that since the start of this rebuild. Smid was supposed to be that kind of player but injuries derailed his career unfortunately. I actually think Shlemko was a third pairing guy that could be relied on but of course we let him get away.

Now we have a d-corps full of offensive d-men and jack of all trade d-men and we wonder why we can't shut down the opposition? (part of it is team defence of course, too. but that falls a bit more on the coach)

[Wiggum_PI]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Is there a chance our players just aren't as good as we all thought and Hartley's one playoff run was the absolute pinnacle of what they would be able to achieve? I mean they were crap last year too with him as the coach right?

Which players are you referring to that supposedly played like crap last year? Despite all the struggles and inconsistency on the team, some of the players had career seasons. I think its a bit disingenuous to say that everyone played like crap, although if you're talking about goaltending I totally agree.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by genetic_phreek

I don't see how we're "trending" and shouldn't the rebuild be close to complete?

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

It will probably take longer because of how long the organization stubbornly tried to win now. We are paying the long-term price now for that short-term thinking.

You can also add in the inability to extract any quality assets from the last core that was in place: Kipper/Iginla/Regehr/Bouwmeester - the organization netted next to nothing from those guys.

So it is gonna take a while.

Yep. The Flames were as delusional as the Canucks are now, in denial about the need for a rebuild until it was too late. And then got pretty much nothing for the assets they did move. Four years ago the Flames had, without a doubt, the worst collection of under 28 talent and prospects in the NHL.

So this was always going to be a long rebuild. 6-7 years instead of 4-5. In that context, I didn't mind the Frolik and Brouwer deals, but the Giordano deal looks like it's going to be a disaster. By the time the Flames new core is fleshed out, Gio's contract will be an anchor.

Canadian teams have proved over and over again that they're too impatient to carry out proper rebuilds. I had hoped that Treliving would be more patient, but I have my doubts now. The rumours that he's trying to make a deal to save the season alarm me. This isn't the time to sacrifice any long-term assets for a quick fix.

[harmony]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

This is absolute revisionists history. Go back to the signing thread. That deal was adored by everyone here.

I, for one, thought that was a horrible contract.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Wiggum_PI

Which players are you referring to that supposedly played like crap last year? Despite all the struggles and inconsistency on the team, some of the players had career seasons. I think its a bit disingenuous to say that everyone played like crap, although if you're talking about goaltending I totally agree.

Career year in terms of points which may have been inflated by system the team was using.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

There is no defined timeline for a re-build. The fact is the Flames are still missing some critical pieces
- Long-term #1
- #3/4 dman
- Top line winger

So based on the construction and makeup of the team alone, as well as the results, it would seem that the re-build is not complete.

It will probably take longer because of how long the organization stubbornly tried to win now. We are paying the long-term price now for that short-term thinking.

You can also add in the inability to extract any quality assets from the last core that was in place: Kipper/Iginla/Regehr/Bouwmeester - the organization netted next to nothing from those guys.

So it is gonna take a while.

It's a little unfair to blame the state of the team on the previous regime IMO. Some of the most valuable pieces on the roster were acquired by Feaster et al. And offhand, I ca't really think of successful rebuilds that were jumpstarted by jettisoning guys near the end of their prime and if in fact, that was a prerequisite for success, management should be roasted for the Giordano signing

Question isn't whether the rebuild is complete, but whether team is on the right track and reasonable objectives have been met. Its not really fair to base too much on the season's start but the fact that the team is out of it already is a bad sign. And so is the fact that this is a cap team at this stage, with much of the current cap problems self inflicted and not all attributable to Feaster.

I can appreciate the "stay the course" viewpoint, but I would be interested in a decent argument about what those who believe in that course of action are seeing to make them confident it will work out.

I don't subscribe to the fire everybody argument, mainly because I don't see a better alternative. But I am starting to get concerned that current management doesn't have a firm grasp on what this team needs.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

There is no defined timeline for a re-build. The fact is the Flames are still missing some critical pieces
- Long-term #1
- #3/4 dman
- Top line winger

So based on the construction and makeup of the team alone, as well as the results, it would seem that the re-build is not complete.

It will probably take longer because of how long the organization stubbornly tried to win now. We are paying the long-term price now for that short-term thinking.

You can also add in the inability to extract any quality assets from the last core that was in place: Kipper/Iginla/Regehr/Bouwmeester - the organization netted next to nothing from those guys.

So it is gonna take a while.

Hamilton as a top line forward?

He is a disaster as a defenseman anywhere on this side of the offensive blueline. There is no one good enough to cover for him.

He was a forward before his size and physical attributes made him a good junior d-man.

He is untradeable with his contract.... unlike Griffin Rienhart it does help to send him to the minors.

[Wiggum_PI]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Career year in terms of points which may have been inflated by system the team was using.

Most teams that make the playoffs have their top players putting up a lot of points. The main issues with the Flames last year IMO, were goaltending and special teams. I bet the team would have a lot more wins this season if Gaudreau, Monahan, Brodie, and Gio were putting up similar point totals to last year.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

He is untradeable with his contract.... unlike Griffin Rienhart it does help to send him to the minors.

You seriously think Hamilton is untradeable with his contract? At the very most we'd be disappointed with the return compared to what we paid. But to suggest that not only cold we not get a crappy return but literally couldn't trade him away is ridiculous.