ECF - (A2) Tampa Bay Lightning vs. (M2) Pittsburgh Penguins - Penguins Win 4-3

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by midniteowl

I don't know if MAF is the most over rated goatender, but switching goalie when the series is tied going back home and still have home ice was pretty stupid. Especially MAF hasn't played in a while and Murray didn't play poorly.

Career regular season 912 goaltender, which is below average.

Career playoffs is 906. Pathetic.

I think a lot of people generally regard MAF is a quality starter which is an absurd notion to me.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Outside of a few outlier series (e.g. his cup run where he played above himself and a couple disastrous series against Philly when he got lit up), Fleury is basically a league average goalie. He's not deserving of the reputation he used to have, but then, he doesn't have it anymore. So he's not overrated at this point. The main thing Fleury gives you is good-but-not-great goaltending and a lot of quality starts. He's almost never hurt. As goalies go, that's worth a decent bit.

They still should have stuck with Murray. Gotta dance with the girl that brung ya.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

Maf is the most over rated goaltender in the last ten years easy



Tampa was probably fist bumping when they heard he was the starter

He is one of only 17 goaltenders in the last ten years to play more than 400 games, and ranks 9th amongst them in SV%.

He has been and still is a very good goaltender. He largely kept the Penguins relevant while Crosby and the gang took half a year off.

[calgaryblood]

Why would they go with Fleury? Matt Murray didn't play that bad last game. They should go back with him for game 6.

[Jaydee]

I'll take 1 MAF this off season plz

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

He is one of only 17 goaltenders in the last ten years to play more than 400 games, and ranks 9th amongst them in SV%.

He has been and still is a very good goaltender. He largely kept the Penguins relevant while Crosby and the gang took half a year off.

The only thing this means is that he's been over played for his value. You can spin all you like but 912 is below the league average, and 906 is far below league average.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

The only thing this means is that he's been over played for his value. You can spin all you like but 912 is below the league average, and 906 is far below league average.

Overplayed for his value? He's been a consistently good starter his entire career. Maybe not Vezina caliber, but he's done the job.

THAT is what that says. No spin.

Not a lot of guys put up higher than .914 over the last 10 seasons while being a starter for most of that.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Overplayed for his value? He's been a consistently good starter his entire career. Maybe not Vezina caliber, but he's done the job.

THAT is what that says. No spin.

Not a lot of guys put up higher than .914 over the last 10 seasons while being a starter for most of that.

The spin is your attempt to show that his abundance of starts is proof he is good. That's spin. The proof is in the numbers. 915-917 is an average goaltender. 912 is well short of that. 906 in the playoffs is dreadful. Just because he keeps getting trotted out to play sub par doesn't make him a good starter as your asserting. That's like saying Ondrej Pavelec is an average starter because he's been the Winnipeg/Atlanta starter for 7 years.

I swear the blindspot that exists for some goaltenders is absolutely incredible. 912 is a bad save % ... no matter how many starts you get. If anything a high # of starts all but re assures you that his #'s are correct due to sample size. And this is all with a cap hit of nearly 6 million dollars. Incredible.

[JJ1532]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

The only thing this means is that he's been over played for his value. You can spin all you like but 912 is below the league average, and 906 is far below league average.

Ah stats. They almost always tell you the full picture of a player and his actual ability don't they?

Do you know what I get from his stats? That he struggled during his younger years and eventually(once he turned 25/26) settled down and has now produced 6 years of league average goaltending, during the regular season anyway. Isn't that pretty much standard for goalies, that they don't really show their true form until they hit 25?

Carey Price put up a .913% average in his first 5 seasons in the league. His career average is .919%. So by your logic, Price is only a slightly above average NHL goaltender?

Quick has a .908% career regular season sv%. Is he a below average league goaltender?

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by JJ1532

Ah stats. They almost always tell you the full picture of a player and his actual ability don't they?

Do you know what I get from his stats? That he struggled during his younger years and eventually(once he turned 25/26) settled down and has now produced 6 years of league average goaltending, during the regular season anyway. Isn't that pretty much standard for goalies, that they don't really show their true form until they hit 25?

Carey Price put up a .913% average in his first 5 seasons in the league. His career average is .919%. So by your logic, Price is only a slightly above average NHL goaltender?

Quick has a .908% career regular season sv%. Is he a below average league goaltender?

Price is actually 920.. which is very good over a long period of time. Especially on a lousy team like Montreal. Pittsburgh is a very talented team and has been talented for a while.

Quick has a 921 in the post season. Not a great comparison.

[JJ1532]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

The spin is your attempt to show that his abundance of starts is proof he is good. That's spin. The proof is in the numbers. 915-917 is an average goaltender. 912 is well short of that. 906 in the playoffs is dreadful. Just because he keeps getting trotted out to play sub par doesn't make him a good starter as your asserting. That's like saying Ondrej Pavelec is an average starter because he's been the Winnipeg/Atlanta starter for 7 years.

I swear the blindspot that exists for some goaltenders is absolutely incredible. 912 is a bad save % ... no matter how many starts you get. If anything a high # of starts all but re assures you that his #'s are correct due to sample size. And this is all with a cap hit of nearly 6 million dollars. Incredible.

Well short?! Its .003% of a difference. Thats minute.

Say a goaltender faces 25 shots a game for 40 games. Thats 1,000 shots. If he saves 915 of them, he's average. If he saves 912 of them, he's below average? That's ridiculous. The difference of 3 goals over 40 games. That shouldn't be the difference between being ok and being poor.

Would any other playing position get judged on such fine margins?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Quick is actually a below average goaltender.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by JJ1532

Well short?! Its .003% of a difference. Thats minute.

Say a goaltender faces 25 shots a game for 40 games. Thats 1,000 shots. If he saves 915 of them, he's average. If he saves 912 of them, he's below average? That's ridiculous. The difference of 3 goals over 40 games. That shouldn't be the difference between being ok and being poor.

Would any other playing position get judged on such fine margins?

You're kind of ignoring off the big one here and that's Fleurys complete collapse in the post season, but ok.

Garret on HF boards and a TSN contributor did some really good data gathering on the difference between quality teams and bad teams on goaltenders. He found the range to be about 01 to 05 %... so that 912 could be as bad a 907 on a much less talented team. But I digress.

When you pay someone nearly 6 million a year... below average goaltending in the season, and, a total tire fire in the playoffs is a laughable return.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Quick is actually a below average goaltender.

No. He isn't.

[IgiTang]

The knock on Fleury is that he always cracks under the pressure. In the cup run he didn't necessarily steal any games for Pittsburgh. I know he had a tin of good games where he made key saves, but I dont recall the team infront of him getting out-classed where he had to legitimately steal a game to keep his team alive

Infact, since the cup run, Everytime he's been in that type situation, he's failed. This dates all the way back to his WJC gaffs..

When it's on the line, Fleury is not the answer.

For a stop gap over a couple years, is he going to instill confidence in his team or is the team going to get frustrated in front of him and know they have to keep playing with him for a couple years.

Lets face it, Fleury is who he is and is arguably declining. If this is his prime years, I would be reluctant to call them "prime".

[Jaydee]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Quick is actually a below average goaltender.

His sv% suffers because LA doesn't allow too many shots

[Canuck-Hater]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Quick is actually a below average goaltender.

Not at all. Take a peak at his playoff stats. https://www.nhl.com/player/jonathan-quick-8471734
And in 2012 Quick's playoff stats were godlike and the major reason the Kings won the cup.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

You're kind of ignoring off the big one here and that's Fleurys complete collapse in the post season, but ok.

Garret on HF boards and a TSN contributor did some really good data gathering on the difference between quality teams and bad teams on goaltenders. He found the range to be about 01 to 05 %... so that 912 could be as bad a 907 on a much less talented team. But I digress.

When you pay someone nearly 6 million a year... below average goaltending in the season, and, a total tire fire in the playoffs is a laughable return.

This is a perfect example of cherry picking a stat to put a spin on something.

Sure, a career of .912.... but you know he was below .907 four times in the first 5 years of his career?

For the past 6? Below .915 (your mark of average) once.

.921 (this year)
.920
.915
.916
.913
.918

But .920 is really quite good, or no? Because that's the way he's been playing the last couple years.

Honestly, save the dramatic "blind spots! Incredible!" thing, you've clearly got a huge one. Just look at stats a little more closely if you'd like to get a better picture. Choosing career SV% as a judgement on current ability of performance is a poor choice.

Based on your logic, Jonas Hiller right now is better than Carey Price, Braden Holtby, and Ben Bishop. Guess we should have re-signed him, we had a Vezina contender!

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Quick is actually a below average goaltender.

False

[Jaydee]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Quick is actually a below average goaltender.

His sv% suffers because LA doesn't allow too many shots