[News] Update: NHL green lights season-ticket drive for Las Vegas

[Vulcan]

Could the NHL be looking to gain more popularity in the shadow industry of gambling? Publicly major sports is against legalized gambling as it will threaten the integrity of their games but it sells tickets and sports merchandise.

According to the Nevada Gaming Commission, in 2011 $3.2 billion was wagered in sports bets in the state’s casinos. Of that amount, $1.34 billion or 41 percent was handled just for football. Outside of Nevada the numbers are much bigger. The National Gambling Impact Study Commission estimates that $380 billion is wagered a year on football through offshore accounts and illegal betting.
Gambling is a shadow industry that operates independently of the NFL but relies on football games to bankroll casinos and its gamblers. In turn, the NFL benefits from the intense fan interest that gambling helps to generate. Many fans have far more riding on this weekend’s game than regional pride.
“The NFL knows a meaningful part of their fan base is interested because they can bet on the games. And if they can’t they would be far less interested in getting tickets, going to games and buying merchandise,” says Finn.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-business.html

[#-3]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

but people aren't going to drive from SoCal to Vegas to watch a hockey game... or is tht not what you are trying to say?

No I was more trying to say that their chance of success might be better than say, Miami or Carolina. because it might be easy for them to adopt a rivalry with teams that already have decent fans.

Its hard to move into new territory when you have no natural rival, or your natural rival has a fan base that just doesn't care.

I think the Argument that Western Canadians might fill allot of seats is more credible than LAers. Even at that I thing they would be pretty lucky to get 1000/game.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Comes down to the arena location in a lot of those places. Arizona and Florida both put their arenas no where near the cities where they are supposedly based and shockingly... no one is willing to drive to the games. Even Ottawa can struggle with attendance because they pulled the same move of putting the arena outside the main city.

This is such an underrated point. Being in the heart of a vibrant area is important for fans to make the journey to the game, not just the commute time either. Atmosphere of the surrounding area before and after a game is still pretty important. Vegas has that part figured out.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Who said it has anything to do with rigging sporting events?

Las Vegas is all show and no substance. It's about money, glitz, hype, and short-term gratification. It has no soul. Chasing that soulless buck is what second-tier leagues like the XFL, Arena League and 90s CFL do.

Franchises should be placed where there are already fans of your sport, or where there exists the possibility to build a long-term fan base, and some legitimate sporting history. If Vegas is such a viable market, why aren't the MLB, NBA or NFL already there? There are actual fans of those sports there at least.

Nobody gives a crap about hockey in Nevada, and chances are very few ever will. After the initial shine wears off, the only people who will be attending the game are some tourists, and those with freebies. All this while there are legitimate hockey fans desperate for hockey in Quebec.

What do you mean by cheapen the league then. Is your position that Tampa, Florida, LA, San Jose, Anaheim, Pheonix, Atlanta, Columbus, Nashville, etc should have never gotter teams because it cheapens the league because there were no fans there? I agree that the NHL should be going to Quebec becasue there is a building and an owner who want a team but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be going to Vegas.

The other 3 big leagues aren't in vegas becasue of Gambling. Don't have a link but I understand that to be the case.

[GioforPM]

There are lots of valid arguments against going to Vegas.

Being "soulless" or "all show and no substance" isn't a good one.

[Hockey Fan #751]

When looking at Vegas's average income don't forget that a lot of the money made in Vegas is under the table. There's a lot more money in Vegas than people think.

Plus when you look at whether or not the NHL will expand it seems pretty obvious just by looking at how the conferences are aligned that two western expansion teams are coming quick. It's money that the NHL owners don't have to share with the players for starters.

The other part about it is which cities will the NHL expand?

If you again just did what appeared most obvious, it seems to me that one expansion team will be Las Vegas to fill a spot in the Pacific Division and the other will be Kansas City to fill a spot in the Central Division.

Seattle remains as a relocation hammer for Phoenix and Quebec City remains as a relocation hammer for Florida.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

There are lots of valid arguments against going to Vegas.

Being "soulless" or "all show and no substance" isn't a good one.

why not? if your hope for attendence is visitor team fans rather then a home town base

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

why not? if your hope for attendence is visitor team fans rather then a home town base

That doesn't mean Vegas is soulless IMO. Unless I'm misunderstanding the definition.

[GioforPM]

The ECHL Wranglers get average 4500-5500 attendance over the last few years. I'm betting an NHL team, with the attraction of being the only big league sport in town, gets 15000 per game, which is good enough for the Jets.

If the NBA followed, the NHL team would die.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

That doesn't mean Vegas is soulless IMO. Unless I'm misunderstanding the definition.

I think you take the term "soulless" too literally... it doesn't mean they aren't accepting god's salvation or anything.

Moreso to do with hockey..... not really a strong community type place, vs a place like Seattle. Being in a service industry for "sin city" doesn't really build a strong community feeling that will have $100 per game season tickets to a new sport that isn't overly popular.... yes I realize the Wranglers were there for a while.

people like to talk about SJ or LA or other successful south teams, but rather then just blindly say that it can work, its important to ask WHY teams worked here. The "soul" of a team a local team is how the locals will support it...... will a working girl be owning season tickets and heading over to the game after her shift? What is their disposible income? rather then just look at the mean, what is the distribution of income?

or is the target visiting fans from Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver and Winnipeg? giving away tickets for free? Is it for the locals?

thats personally the reason i just don't see it working.. but oh well, just my opinion

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The ECHL Wranglers get average 4500-5500 attendance over the last few years. I'm betting an NHL team, with the attraction of being the only big league sport in town, gets 15000 per game, which is good enough for the Jets.

If the NBA followed, the NHL team would die.

critical question to ask, would those 5000 people who bought tickets, will they pay 10x the cost for tickets for the upgrade from ECHL to NHL? do they even have that income?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

critical question to ask, would those 5000 people who bought tickets, will they pay 10x the cost for tickets for the upgrade from ECHL to NHL? do they even have that income?

Nope, not all. And that's a valid point (as opposed to not liking the perceived glitzy/trashy nature of the city). But it does show that Vegas can be a sports town. It's 2 million people (Metro) and the average income is better than some think.

That all said, I'd rather see Seattle, Quebec or maybe Portland. Each of those has their own issues, though.

Maybe Edmonton should get an NHL team.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Nope, not all. And that's a valid point (as opposed to not liking the perceived glitzy/trashy nature of the city). But it does show that Vegas can be a sports town. It's 2 million people (Metro) and the average income is better than some think.

I go there a lot (3-4x per year? not for gambling or any of the weird sin city stuff though, don't worry).... actually know a lot of locals in the area... so don't get me wrong, I like Vegas as much as the next person.... but it is what it is. Yes, low taxes has brought at least a little bit of non-service business in the area, but you can't ignore the primary industry driving the economy there. Sport teams are geared towards the home town average person, the middle class.... its those fans that are keeping the successful teams in non-trad markets as successful as they are. But Las Vegas? Its going to be a lot tougher as income for the average is significantly lower. and the hours make it difficult to be fan in that kind of industry.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

I go there a lot (3-4x per year? not for gambling or any of the weird sin city stuff though, don't worry).... actually know a lot of locals in the area... so don't get me wrong, I like Vegas as much as the next person.... but it is what it is. Yes, low taxes has brought at least a little bit of non-service business in the area, but you can't ignore the primary industry driving the economy there. Sport teams are geared towards the home town average person, the middle class.... its those fans that are keeping the successful teams in non-trad markets as successful as they are. But Las Vegas? Its going to be a lot tougher as income for the average is significantly lower. and the hours make it difficult to be fan in that kind of industry.

I go 2-3 times a year. I do go for gambling (and the other good clean fun stuff). The service people are actually fairly well off, and I'm not talking about working girls. The median income in Clark County is about the same as Winnipeg (adjusted for US dollar).

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

I go there a lot (3-4x per year? not for gambling or any of the weird sin city stuff though, don't worry).... actually know a lot of locals in the area... so don't get me wrong, I like Vegas as much as the next person.... but it is what it is. Yes, low taxes has brought at least a little bit of non-service business in the area, but you can't ignore the primary industry driving the economy there. Sport teams are geared towards the home town average person, the middle class.... its those fans that are keeping the successful teams in non-trad markets as successful as they are. But Las Vegas? Its going to be a lot tougher as income for the average is significantly lower. and the hours make it difficult to be fan in that kind of industry.

Yep. And to add on to the poor demographics in Vegas argument:

In the States hockey is most popular in the white, educated demographic. Another strike against Vegas. The town is about 60% white, 40% Hispanic/black.

The town is poorly educated. Nevada has the worst education system in the USandA. About 40% of high schoolers don't even graduate.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/ed...ed-last-nation

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I go 2-3 times a year. I do go for gambling (and the other good clean fun stuff). The service people are actually fairly well off, and I'm not talking about working girls. The median income in Clark County is about the same as Winnipeg (adjusted for US dollar).

do you have a link for this? i'm curious, though I don't know a lot about Winnipeg

I do know there are a lot of lawyers, small business owners for bail bonds as well (not to stereotype or anything), and surprisingly lots of surgeons there (not sure why there are so many doctors there)

also - did you by any chance account for extra costs (i.e. cost of living) of being in America vs Canada? Again it all comes down to disposible income, you have to look at the big picture. Can the average family own season tickets, can they pay $100-200 per game for a few games a year?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

do you have a link for this? i'm curious, though I don't know a lot about Winnipeg

I do know there are a lot of lawyers, small business owners for bail bonds as well (not to stereotype or anything), and surprisingly lots of surgeons there (not sure why there are so many doctors there)

also - did you by any chance account for extra costs (i.e. cost of living) of being in America vs Canada? Again it all comes down to disposible income, you have to look at the big picture. Can the average family own season tickets, can they pay $100-200 per game for a few games a year?

I just googled median income for each place.

The COL in Vegas is less than here. Not sure about Winnipeg but i'd suspect so. Real estate is incredibly cheap - it's like Phoenix. Groceries aer generally less. Gas is wayyyyyyy cheaper than Winnipeg. Cheaper than Calgary even.

[GioforPM]

FWIW: http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living...as+Vegas%2C+NV

http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-li...vegas/winnipeg

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I just googled median income for each place.

The COL in Vegas is less than here. Not sure about Winnipeg but i'd suspect so. Real estate is incredibly cheap - it's like Phoenix. Groceries aer generally less. Gas is wayyyyyyy cheaper than Winnipeg. Cheaper than Calgary even.

did you account for things like insurance? sorry i dont mean to be a pain the ass...... like I said, I spend a lot of time in Vegas and almost all of it off-stripe. I also spent a lot of time in Edmonton... just my outsider POV, like cars to condition of society, it just does not look like a healthy economy or society. You get patches of Whole Foods or new housing development on the suburbs of the city, the rest is really kind of stark.

EDIT : thank you for the link.... I kind of want to go digging to figure out why LV appears to poor, maybe they are all in debt from gambling or something lol......

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Las Vegas is poor by most standards. Las Vegas doesn't have a single demographic going it's way.

Las Vegas is #80 on metropolitan income rankings, behind such wealthy towns like Cedar Rapids, IA, and Sioux Falls, SD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest..._United_States