Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

^ In a real liberal democracy you have all sorts of voices including those that may be extreme and even crazy. That's the rub with a true democracy. You can't just silence voices that you disagree with. Otherwise, it's no longer a democracy. There are members of the Tea Party in the US that aren't far off this level of crazy BTW. This doesn't represent Israel, the Israeli people NOR Israeli policy. The irony is that many, if not most, of the extreme Israeli right-wingers, Zionists and illegal settlers are Americans.

Israel is no hero in this debacle. Their are a lot of right-wingers and even extreme right-wingers that are given voice because of the parliamentary system they have in place, as mentioned. This often leads to issues like illegal settlements which do nothing but inflame the situation. However, the policy of the government of Israel has NEVER been to eradicate the Palestinians. Compare that with the policy of the the elected Hamas government in Gaza who's charter is anchored around the destruction of Israel. Peace is a non-starter as long as Hamas is around.

Here's the thing though, it's not an equal comparison. One side has suffered tangible loss, whether it be land, resources, or whatever. The other side lives a much more comfortable life. Obviously, the side that has lost something will have more extreme views regarding the other side. This is why you don't see the neighboring Arab nations calling for Israel's destruction, they haven't been directly impacted. Here is what ISRAEL'S first PM, David Ben-Gurion said,

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?" The Jewish Paradox : A personal memoir (1978)

[blankall]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Here's the thing though, it's not an equal comparison. One side has suffered tangible loss, whether it be land, resources, or whatever. The other side lives a much more comfortable life. Obviously, the side that has lost something will have more extreme views regarding the other side. This is why you don't see the neighboring Arab nations calling for Israel's destruction, they haven't been directly impacted. Here is what ISRAEL'S first PM, David Ben-Gurion said,

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?" The Jewish Paradox : A personal memoir (1978)

Some more quotes

"Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate."
- Prince Hassan, brother of King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2nd February 1970

"There is no family on the East Bank of the river (Jordan) that does not have relatives on the West Bank ... no family in the west that does not have branches in the east."
- King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2nd February 1972

"We consider it necessary to clarify to one and all, in the Arab world and outside, that the PALESTINIAN PEOPLE with its nobility and conscience is to be found HERE on the EAST Bank (of the Jordan River), The WEST Bank and the Gaza Strip. Its overwhelming majority is HERE and nowhere else."
- King Hussein, quoted in An-Hahar, Beirut, 24th August 1972


In 1937, the Arab leader Auni Bey Abdul Hadi told the Peel Commission: "There is no such country as Palestine . Palestine is alien to us."

In 1946, Princeton's Arab professor of Middle East history, Philip Hitti, told the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry: "It's common knowledge, there is no such thing as Palestine in history."

In March 1977, Zahir Muhsein, an executive member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), said in an interview to the Dutch newspaper Trouw: "The 'Palestinian people' does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel."

The majority of Israelis are descended from refugees from Arab countries. None expect to get anything from any of those Arabs. They gave up and were forced out of land several times the size of Israel.

I agree it would be awful to be a Palestinian and don't downplay their loss, but the fact of the matter is Israel is not going anywhere. Any organization whose sole goal is to destroy Israel is going to come up on the losing side and so are the people who support them. Palestine's best option right now is through peaceful means. Like I said before they have a chance to take back about 95% of the West Bank right now. They'll have a chance to negotiate for more. They won't get anything, except cruise missiles in their backyards, through violence.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by _Q_

That's 10% and form a sizeable chunk of the ruling 68 member coalition (Israeli politics work differently than Canada's where coalition governments are formed between rival parties). That's only 8 less seats than Netanyahu's Likud party.

The Jewish Home party's leader, Naftali Bennett who is currently Israel's Minister of Industry, isn't much better than Shaked either

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...i-bennett.html



His idea of how to create peace is to Anex Area C, which comprises 68% of the West Bank and transfer control of the remainder to the Palestinian Authority thus creating South Africa style Bantustans.

Truly scary stuff!

My point with all of this is, in a liberal democracy, parties like this don't exist. They wouldn't have much of a following are are generally illegal. In Israeli style democracy, these parties aren't just legal, but are included in a coalition.

A major issue is that you're holding Israel to a North American standard of politics. If you look at countries in Europe almost all have extremist nationalist political parties that routinely win 5-10% of the vote. Those countries aren't embroiled in a nationalist/religious war either. Well the Ukraine is and Ireland used to be, and both countries have relatively a high amount of nationalist voters.

Also, Israel does outlaw any party that promotes violence.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by blankall

Some more quotes




The majority of Israelis are descended from refugees from Arab countries. None expect to get anything from any of those Arabs. They gave up and were forced out of land several times the size of Israel.

I agree it would be awful to be a Palestinian and don't downplay their loss, but the fact of the matter is Israel is not going anywhere. Any organization whose sole goal is to destroy Israel is going to come up on the losing side and so are the people who support them. Palestine's best option right now is through peaceful means. Like I said before they have a chance to take back about 95%
of the West Bank right now. They'll have a chance to negotiate for more. They won't get anything, except cruise missiles in their backyards, through violence.

The quotes you posted of King Hussein and his brother doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a Palestine.There are many ethnicities that occupy shared borders of 2countries, doesn't mean that those 2lands should merge or that the inhabitants of one country should go with their "brothers" in another country. As for the other quotes about there never being an actual country called Palestine, how is that relevant? There was never a Pakistan when it was created, there was never a South Sudan when it was created. The important thing was that there were people there for many centuries who wanted their own state.

That being said, I agree with your last paragraph. Israel is a fait accompli. The Palestinians have to understand that. I' m Muslim and I have no problem with even an Israel that wants to be a Jewish majority state forever. The holy sites of the Jewish people are there, their history is there, they deserve a Jewish country. The Palestinians have to get over the whole, well my grandpa lived there. Yes, bad things happened at the creation of Israel which forced people out of their homes. But,it's time to move on. Just because your ancestors were displaced doesn't mean you should displace the current population who has been there several generations now.

[Red Slinger]

^ I don't think most Palestinians take issue with the existence of a state of Israel (but I could be wrong). But what is clear is the governments of Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Iraq and others (from time to time) have worked to destroy Israel from the day it was founded in 1948 to today. These states have sponsored, protected and even trained terrorist organizations whose main purpose is to destroy Israel. These nations have wanted to destroy Israel because the existence of a liberal democracy where Arabs can live and learn the ideals of freedom is a threat to the long term existence of their dictatorships. These states, through the use of their sponsored terror organizations, constantly and consistently work to destabilize Israel, make Israel the enemy in the eyes of their people (and thereby avoiding the spotlight themselves) and, of course, creating a humanitarian crisis by way of the Palestinian people so that Israel is condemned internationally. All of these steps are meant to make Israel weaker and the Arab dictatorships stronger.

The Palestinians are pawns in this game. Israel, while not exactly a pawn, is usually left with few choices but to react with violence. That said, Israel has made some serious errors which has unnecessarily escalated violence, primarily by way of the settlements into recognized Palestinian land. It's hard to imagine a real peace until more than two or three countries in the region actually want peace. It will take a real and long lasting 'Arab Spring' to make that a reality I think.

[WCW Nitro]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

^ I don't think most Palestinians take issue with the existence of a state of Israel (but I could be wrong). But what is clear is the governments of Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Iraq and others (from time to time) have worked to destroy Israel from the day it was founded in 1948 to today. These states have sponsored, protected and even trained terrorist organizations whose main purpose is to destroy Israel. These nations have wanted to destroy Israel because the existence of a liberal democracy where Arabs can live and learn the ideals of freedom is a threat to the long term existence of their dictatorships. These states, through the use of their sponsored terror organizations, constantly and consistently work to destabilize Israel, make Israel the enemy in the eyes of their people (and thereby avoiding the spotlight themselves) and, of course, creating a humanitarian crisis by way of the Palestinian people so that Israel is condemned internationally. All of these steps are meant to make Israel weaker and the Arab dictatorships stronger.

The Palestinians are pawns in this game. Israel, while not exactly a pawn, is usually left with few choices but to react with violence. That said, Israel has made some serious errors which has unnecessarily escalated violence, primarily by way of the settlements into recognized Palestinian land. It's hard to imagine a real peace until more than two or three countries in the region actually want peace. It will take a real and long lasting 'Arab Spring' to make that a reality I think.

Outside of the most hardcore Hamas members, the Palestinians do recognize Israel. However, many of them insist on a right of return, being eligible for Israeli citizenship due to their ancestors being kicked out of present day Israel. This is where I disagree with them, it would make the Jewish people potentially a minority in their own country. Every major religion has at least one country of their own, the Jewish people should to. As for the Arab countries, they have all moved on and accepted Israel. Syria supports Hezbollah, but that is basically a Lebanese-centred faction whose main aim is to protect its land in Lebanon.

[Flash Walken]

What is the equivalent of anti-semitism for Arabs? Is it just 'racist'?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

What is the equivalent of anti-semitism for Arabs? Is it just 'racist'?

Technically Arabs are also Semetic people, so the term could apply to Arabs as well (although it never is)..

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

^ I don't think most Palestinians take issue with the existence of a state of Israel (but I could be wrong). But what is clear is the governments of Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Iraq and others (from time to time) have worked to destroy Israel from the day it was founded in 1948 to today. These states have sponsored, protected and even trained terrorist organizations whose main purpose is to destroy Israel. These nations have wanted to destroy Israel because the existence of a liberal democracy where Arabs can live and learn the ideals of freedom is a threat to the long term existence of their dictatorships. These states, through the use of their sponsored terror organizations, constantly and consistently work to destabilize Israel, make Israel the enemy in the eyes of their people (and thereby avoiding the spotlight themselves) and, of course, creating a humanitarian crisis by way of the Palestinian people so that Israel is condemned internationally. All of these steps are meant to make Israel weaker and the Arab dictatorships stronger.

The Palestinians are pawns in this game. Israel, while not exactly a pawn, is usually left with few choices but to react with violence. That said, Israel has made some serious errors which has unnecessarily escalated violence, primarily by way of the settlements into recognized Palestinian land. It's hard to imagine a real peace until more than two or three countries in the region actually want peace. It will take a real and long lasting 'Arab Spring' to make that a reality I think.

It's a little more complex than that IMO.

You have to keep in mind that Egypt also enforces the blockade on the Gaza Strip. Jordan (who has full relations with Israel) equally is opposed to any kind of fundamentalist militias.

Historically, it was nationalist groups who were the most violent. Now it seems to have reversed, where the nationalist groups (Ex. the PLO) are relatively peaceful and the fundamentalist groups are out of control. The Sunni fundamentalist groups (ex. Hamas) get their funding primarily from Saudi Arabia. The #####e fundamentalist groups (ex. Hezbollah) get their funding primarily from Iran.

It makes sense for Iran and Saudi Arabia to do this as both are the respective religious authorities of their religions. So, for example, if you have a government based on Sunni principles, they will ultimately have to refer to the authorities in Saudi Arabia. So the governments in Iran and Saudi Arabia have been actively funding violent movements in what, for a very long time, were relatively peaceful religions.

Israel also makes the perfect scape goat for these systems. Israel is in control of the Dome of the Rock, Israel is occupying the Palestinians, and Israel has defeated several Arab armies. The thing about a fundamentalist population is that you always need to directing them against someone.

I also don't think it's so easy to write off Hamas' goal of total destruction of Israel as not being held by Palestinians. Hamas was, after all, won a majority of the seats in the Palestinian legislature by democratic election. Hamas has never been shy about its goal and how it plans to achieve that goal. There is a large segment of the Palestinian population who supports Hamas, both for their political and religious goals.

[WCW Nitro]

Israel bombs handicap care facility, amazing that people think Israel never targets civilian places.

http://www.afp.com/en/news/horror-ga...acility-bombed

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by WCW Nitro

Israel bombs handicap care facility, amazing that people think Israel never targets civilian places.

http://www.afp.com/en/news/horror-ga...acility-bombed

You really think Israel's goal was to target a handicapped care facility? The logical choice is A) there were rockets launched by Hamas on the roof and Israel struck back, or B) The missile missed it's target.

What is most interesting is that while Israel will do it's best to avoid those targets, Hamas will try it's best to get Israel to shoot at populated areas.

Here is a story of Canadian soldiers 'targeting' innocent teenagers:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle4287543/

On the other hand, if there was choice B) Israeli soldiers target innocent people, and the story is true, these people would be arrested and tried in court.

I wonder what Hamas does to those firing 100s of rockets at Israel? I see you are holding Israel to a different standard, you can't have it both ways.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

You really think Israel's goal was to target a handicapped care facility? The logical choice is A) there were rockets launched by Hamas on the roof and Israel struck back, or B) The missile missed it's target.

What is most interesting is that while Israel will do it's best to avoid those targets, Hamas will try it's best to get Israel to shoot at populated areas.

Here is a story of Canadian soldiers 'targeting' innocent teenagers:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle4287543/

On the other hand, if there was choice B) Israeli soldiers target innocent people, and the story is true, these people would be arrested and tried in court.

I wonder what Hamas does to those firing 100s of rockets at Israel? I see you are holding Israel to a different standard, you can't have it both ways.

Once again you conflate the policies of the Israeli government with those of an organization that you regard as terrorist bent on the extermination of the Israeli state.

It is sad you are so incapable of understanding the parallels.

No one is holding Israel to a different standard. Critics of Israeli policy hold both groups to the same standard; extremists who use violence for political and social gain.

That you've picked one side to defend with your clangorous, thinly veiled attacks against criticism says more about you than it does the situation on the ground in Israel.

You're an example of holding Israel to a different standad, not Nitro.

[T@T]

This is how the conflict(s) in the area will end.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by T@T

This is how the conflict(s) in the area will end.

This post rivals your initial post in this thread in terms of both brevity and content. Kudos.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Once again you conflate the policies of the Israeli government with those of an organization that you regard as terrorist bent on the extermination of the Israeli state.

I have no problem with the Israeli policy of firing back at Hamas rocket sites. In fact, I don't think I have seen many posts offering a solution (except for Hamas to stop firing them). It is unreasonable for Israel to do nothing.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It is sad you are so incapable of understanding the parallels.

It is sad Hamas is putting so many lives at risk, for nothing.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

No one is holding Israel to a different standard. Critics of Israeli policy hold both groups to the same standard; extremists who use violence for political and social gain.

Critics of Israeli policy vary. If you read my posts you will see I am happy to engage in discussion of policy, however to ignore the Hamas rockets in those debates is ludicrous. And you really think no one is holding Israel to a different standard?

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

That you've picked one side to defend with your clangorous, thinly veiled attacks against criticism says more about you than it does the situation on the ground in Israel.

I do not support Hamas. What is your stance?

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

You're an example of holding Israel to a different standad, not Nitro.

That is absurd. You can continue attacking me, but you have no standing in this thread. Nothing.

[spiteface]

this is israel
this is a israeli jew who comes from a strong zionist family:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erjftmFTWnE
this is a jewish american (warning some swearing)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QiV9xn0RbI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo8INDkZDnM

[Nage Waza]

Freedom of speech allows people to speak their mind. Of course there are Jews on both sides of the debate. Doesn't make him right.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Freedom of speech allows people to speak their mind. Of course there are Jews on both sides of the debate. Doesn't make him right.

Yes, I can do that too.
This teen is from the family of Israeli MK Haneen Zoabi
Arab teen praises Israel. - Video
Swedish Interview with Arab-Israeli Teen

The many different ways to call for Israel's destruction.

According to Haniya in 2012 Gaza is not under occupation. @ 1:32

[spiteface]

what freedom of speech he was pinned to the ground and booted

[spiteface]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Yes, I can do that too.
This teen is from the family of Israeli MK Haneen Zoabi
Arab teen praises Israel. - Video
Swedish Interview with Arab-Israeli Teen

The many different ways to call for Israel's destruction.

According to Haniya in 2012 Gaza is not under occupation. @ 1:32

lol at least pick decent videos… shows how much depth you have on the subject