So what does Irving not even dressing for the first 2 games say? Is he 3rd on the depth chart and falling out of the Flames plans or are they gonna play Taylor and Brust off against each other knowing that somebody will likely have to be sent away from Abby?
That could be it, let the other two battle it out but another poster said that since Irving can only dress for 50 games with his AHL PTO contracts, they'll sit him out unless he is going to start. I think they'll keep the three goalies for now.
It is tough to argue with the success in the first two games. Taylor has been solid. But this is a development league and playing Irving needs to be a priority. Having Taylor start both games in a back to back can't be good for Irving confidence.
It is tough to argue with the success in the first two games. Taylor has been solid. But this is a development league and playing Irving needs to be a priority. Having Taylor start both games in a back to back can't be good for Irving confidence.
After the way Taylor played the first game it was a pretty obvious decision that he would start the 2nd game as well .
After the way Taylor played the first game it was a pretty obvious decision that he would start the 2nd game as well .
I get that. But I think the Flames are really mismanaging Irving.
He was almost 200 pro games in before he got a sniff of the NHL. And it isn't like we had a competent back-up. We were throwing Hail Mary's and relying on has been veterans like Karlsson, Toskala, and Mcelhinney. We couldn't have given Irving a sniff?
The guy plays well in his call-up role but is sent back down "so he can play" only to find that he has been usurped as the starter by Taylor while he was in the NHL.
Meanwhile the Flames go out and get Ramo whom they publicly say is ahead of Irving on the depth chart and whom they attempted to bring in this season.
The AHL season starts and Irving finds himself competing against Brust and Taylor. The coach goes on television and says it is Taylor's net.
By all accounts Brust was the best goalie in camp, but Ward has a lot of trust in Taylor so he gets the starts.
Now you have Irving not dressed, not playing, and not developing. Plus, he isn't getting the preparation he needs to be Calgary's back-up if/when the lockout ends.
Irving is a free agent after this season if he doesn't get enough NHL starts. They certainly aren't making a case for him to stay.
If they don't see Irving as a future NHL starter then they need to cut bait. There is no reason they are wasting a contract and roster spot on a goalie with no future. Plus, there will be a learning curve at the NHL level they don't need to endure if they aren't going to keep him.
If they do see a future for Irving then they need to make his development a priority. He shouldn't be given starts. But he should be given a fair opportunity to earn them. And all things equal he gets the priority.
If they aren't sure what to make of Irving then there should be an even higher priority to get him starts so they can assess him.
If Ward doesn't like it then to bad. The Heat is a development league. I get wins lead to development but Irving has close to 200-games and we know he is a capable AHL tender. It isn't like you are putting a risky rookie in net.
That all said it is only two games in so there is plenty of time to get him some starts. But if the plan is to wait until Taylor poops the bed then I think that is a poor poor plan.
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I get that. But I think the Flames are really mismanaging Irving.
He was almost 200 pro games in before he got a sniff of the NHL. And it isn't like we had a competent back-up. We were throwing Hail Mary's and relying on has been veterans like Karlsson, Toskala, and Mcelhinney. We couldn't have given Irving a sniff?
The guy plays well in his call-up role but is sent back down "so he can play" only to find that he has been usurped as the starter by Taylor while he was in the NHL.
Meanwhile the Flames go out and get Ramo whom they publicly say is ahead of Irving on the depth chart and whom they attempted to bring in this season.
The AHL season starts and Irving finds himself competing against Brust and Taylor. The coach goes on television and says it is Taylor's net.
By all accounts Brust was the best goalie in camp, but Ward has a lot of trust in Taylor so he gets the starts.
Now you have Irving not dressed, not playing, and not developing. Plus, he isn't getting the preparation he needs to be Calgary's back-up if/when the lockout ends.
Irving is a free agent after this season if he doesn't get enough NHL starts. They certainly aren't making a case for him to stay.
If they don't see Irving as a future NHL starter then they need to cut bait. There is no reason they are wasting a contract and roster spot on a goalie with no future. Plus, there will be a learning curve at the NHL level they don't need to endure if they aren't going to keep him.
If they do see a future for Irving then they need to make his development a priority. He shouldn't be given starts. But he should be given a fair opportunity to earn them. And all things equal he gets the priority.
If they aren't sure what to make of Irving then there should be an even higher priority to get him starts so they can assess him.
If Ward doesn't like it then to bad. The Heat is a development league. I get wins lead to development but Irving has close to 200-games and we know he is a capable AHL tender. It isn't like you are putting a risky rookie in net.
That all said it is only two games in so there is plenty of time to get him some starts. But if the plan is to wait until Taylor poops the bed then I think that is a poor poor plan.
I believe Irvning can only play so many games the way his contract works.
I am assuming that Irving is getting a fair shake. The problem with Irving is his inconsistency season-to-season. Even last year during the playoffs, Taylor came in and took over the starting job - though one can argue that Irving had family matters on his mind after just having a baby.
I don't think what the Flames are doing with him is 'bad' or 'wrong'. They are just not putting all their eggs in one basket. The guy that ends up clearly head and shoulders over everyone else will get the backup job with Calgary. Everyone has the same chance. If anything, you could argue that Irving is really favored as he is a 1st round draft choice, and that the Flames know fans seem to prefer 'home-grown' drafted players.
I am not too worried about goaltending. Irving, Brossoit, Taylor, Ramo, Gilles, and a nice new surprise in Brust just makes me think that instead of just 'forcing' someone to take over, they all have to prove that they deserve it. I don't think we will have another Trevor Kidd scenario where the Flames spend a high draft pick on a goalie, and just ride him win or lose. All these options force them to become better.
As for Irving not getting the start and 'wasting' by not dressing, there is still really no better option for him at this point. Tough to go to Europe during the lockout with so much available talent, tough to get a starter's job in the AHL - tough to get a starter's job everywhere. At least he is regularly practicing with a pro team, and he will get some games in regardless of how good Brust and Taylor are doing. He is limited to 50 games I believe (if the lockout lasts and he gets another PTO), so no point in using him as much as possible.
The options in net are a great thing to have for the Flames. Just giving a goalie more starts over another just because he is a 1st round draft pick for the organization just shows that meritocracy is a lie. Irving will get his starts, and it is 100% up to him how many starts he gets, and how high he ends up climbing on the Flames' depth charts.
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I am not too worried about goaltending. Irving, Brossoit, Taylor, Ramo, Gilles, and a nice new surprise in Brust just makes me think that instead of just 'forcing' someone to take over, they all have to prove that they deserve it. I don't think we will have another Trevor Kidd scenario where the Flames spend a high draft pick on a goalie, and just ride him win or lose. All these options force them to become better.
For me the thing is that of all the goalies you mentioned only Irving has a Flames contract. The others are maybes they can get a contract if they show enough now or in the future. We may be counting on Irving this season yet and to play with his confidence and sharpness isn't a good plan in my book.
I am assuming that Irving is getting a fair shake. The problem with Irving is his inconsistency season-to-season. Even last year during the playoffs, Taylor came in and took over the starting job - though one can argue that Irving had family matters on his mind after just having a baby.
I don't think what the Flames are doing with him is 'bad' or 'wrong'. They are just not putting all their eggs in one basket. The guy that ends up clearly head and shoulders over everyone else will get the backup job with Calgary. Everyone has the same chance. If anything, you could argue that Irving is really favored as he is a 1st round draft choice, and that the Flames know fans seem to prefer 'home-grown' drafted players.
I am not too worried about goaltending. Irving, Brossoit, Taylor, Ramo, Gilles, and a nice new surprise in Brust just makes me think that instead of just 'forcing' someone to take over, they all have to prove that they deserve it. I don't think we will have another Trevor Kidd scenario where the Flames spend a high draft pick on a goalie, and just ride him win or lose. All these options force them to become better.
As for Irving not getting the start and 'wasting' by not dressing, there is still really no better option for him at this point. Tough to go to Europe during the lockout with so much available talent, tough to get a starter's job in the AHL - tough to get a starter's job everywhere. At least he is regularly practicing with a pro team, and he will get some games in regardless of how good Brust and Taylor are doing. He is limited to 50 games I believe (if the lockout lasts and he gets another PTO), so no point in using him as much as possible.
The options in net are a great thing to have for the Flames. Just giving a goalie more starts over another just because he is a 1st round draft pick for the organization just shows that meritocracy is a lie. Irving will get his starts, and it is 100% up to him how many starts he gets, and how high he ends up climbing on the Flames' depth charts.
The only reason Danny Taylor took over the starting role in Abbotsford was because Leland Irving was in the NHL. He did not outplay him over a significant stretch of time, and did not force ward's hand. IIRC Irving was leading the AHL in wins and games played before his first call up.
With that said it is only two games into the season, but if this trend were to continue we would be at serious risk of losing Irving after this season whether management has him in there plans or not.
Dating back to January 1st, 2012, Leland Irving has only started in 20 games. Say what you will but that is certainly not a positive sign for his development.
I should correct myself. I checked his game log and he got 10 starts in March and went 4-4-1 but his statistics were certainly not impressive in the least.
Outside of that one poor month he has impressed at every turn. I personally hope he gets a fair shake before all is said and done and I suspect he will.
Seems like the Flames are planning on Ramo succeeding Kipper. The organization wants a winner at all levels and want the young players in Abbotsford to expect to win. Also the merit system comes into play. Irving took Karlsson's job even though that wasn't technically the original plan. Taylor taking IRving's job is because he earned it if Irving wants the starts he needs to out work Taylor in every practice and seize the opportunity when it will eventually be given to him.
Seems like the Flames are planning on Ramo succeeding Kipper. The organization wants a winner at all levels and want the young players in Abbotsford to expect to win. Also the merit system comes into play. Irving took Karlsson's job even though that wasn't technically the original plan. Taylor taking IRving's job is because he earned it if Irving wants the starts he needs to out work Taylor in every practice and seize the opportunity when it will eventually be given to him.
If Irving hasn't looked good in practice or in camp then fine. But I haven't heard that. If Taylor is in because Taylor is Ward's guy then the Flames management needs to step in.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that Irving deserves starts just because he has an NHL contract. But based on what I heard about camp it doesn't sound like Taylor won the position. Ward's comments such as 'Taylor is leaving where he left off' further confirm that.
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I beg to differ that Flames management needs to step in but I am not that high on Irving at all. He is a good goalie but I don't think he is being buried in favor of Ward's guy. Anyway I am not putting too much stock into the first 2 games Taylor won the job last year and hasn't lost it yet. If Irving wants the job back he needs to earn it plain and simple. If Flames brass feels he is being intentionally held back then I am sure they will step in.
My take on the goaltending situation in Abbotsford is a little different than those already posted.
I think Irving is with the Heat because he has a young family rooted there and the agreement he signed allows him to practice with the team and consult with Malarchuk while the lock out is in place without having to ply his trade overseas. From the Flames management perspective, they keep a close eye on their top goaltending prospect and he serves as an insurance policy should Taylor or Brust are injured or struggle.
I'm not concerned with Taylor or Brust taking starts away from Irving. I'm sure that Irving, his agent, and Flames management discussed his role with the Heat well before he signed the PTO.
Currently, eight NHL goaltenders are playing overseas (http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=75388) with six being NHL starting goalies (Backstrom, Bobrovsky, Bryzgalov, Pavelec, Rinne, and Varlamov). They are all European goaltenders taking advantage of the opportunity to play in Europe. When Price, Fleury, or Quick take a job overseas than I would be more concerned about Irving staying with the Heat. When the lockout has ended Irving will be ready for action as a result of practicing with the Heat, unlike Karlsson.
Last edited by Tilley; 10-15-2012 at 10:08 PM.
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The only reason Danny Taylor took over the starting role in Abbotsford was because Leland Irving was in the NHL. He did not outplay him over a significant stretch of time, and did not force ward's hand. IIRC Irving was leading the AHL in wins and games played before his first call up.
With that said it is only two games into the season, but if this trend were to continue we would be at serious risk of losing Irving after this season whether management has him in there plans or not.
Dating back to January 1st, 2012, Leland Irving has only started in 20 games. Say what you will but that is certainly not a positive sign for his development.
That is correct - Taylor made the most of getting the starter's job while Irving was away. However, Irving came back, but Taylor still kept the starter's job. Ward wants to 'win', and regardless of who was playing at what time, I would assume Ward would put the best possible lineup in the playoffs. This makes me think that Taylor was at least equal to Irving as a starter, or Ward would have put Irving in during the playoffs.
I personally don't really think Irving is all that 'great' - based on the fact that since his time in the AHL, he has had a good season, followed by an inconsistent season (and inconsistent stretches) - though it may very well just be part of the development process that goalies go through. He just doesn't seem to be 'way better' than Taylor or Brust at the moment. Will he be better? Who knows. From watching him play on the Flames, I didn't think he was really that 'great' - he just looks a bit awkward or something in net as compared to most other goalies for some reason. He certainly wasn't bad - just 'awkward'.
Yes, those other goalies don't have NHL contracts like Irving does, but that really shouldn't matter. There is contract space right now (which I know the Flames want to keep open to try and sign some NCAA guys or just keep open for possible trades in the future), but a good goalie is a good goalie, and anyone can be signed where they see fit. If someone surpasses Irving CONSISTENTLY, then I would have no problem awarding him a contract, and cutting Irving the following season.
Competition is only healthy, and if Irving can't rise to the occasion at the AHL level after so many seasons and beat out everyone else, then he will definitely not rise to the occasion at the NHL level. I am 100% confident that if he is a future NHL starting goalie (or even a good backup), he will just 'take' his opportunity. If Ward feels he has a better chance to win with Brust, or Taylor, or whomever else in the future, then the Flames also have a better chance of winning by signing one of those goalies and making that goalie a backup.
Irving has been in the AHL developing, and has tasted what it is like to be in the NHL. Let's see if he actually matures and shows that he belongs in the NHL by at least beating out two other journeymen goalies in the AHL.
I think this is the season the Flames either throw him up on the team (if/when the lockout ends) or cut him next season completely - but I do think it is 100% up to Irving. Considering he is a 1st round draft choice, he will be awarded all the opportunities possible. He either makes the most of it, or that is it with him in the organization after this year. There is no way that Ward will not play Irving - how much he plays will end up being on how well Irving actually performs. There is just no way that the organization has 'cut' him yet - but Irving will need to show that he is a consistent goalie for a season + playoffs - something I don't think he has quite done as of yet.
That is correct - Taylor made the most of getting the starter's job while Irving was away. However, Irving came back, but Taylor still kept the starter's job. Ward wants to 'win', and regardless of who was playing at what time, I would assume Ward would put the best possible lineup in the playoffs. This makes me think that Taylor was at least equal to Irving as a starter, or Ward would have put Irving in during the playoffs.
I personally don't really think Irving is all that 'great' - based on the fact that since his time in the AHL, he has had a good season, followed by an inconsistent season (and inconsistent stretches) - though it may very well just be part of the development process that goalies go through. He just doesn't seem to be 'way better' than Taylor or Brust at the moment. Will he be better? Who knows. From watching him play on the Flames, I didn't think he was really that 'great' - he just looks a bit awkward or something in net as compared to most other goalies for some reason. He certainly wasn't bad - just 'awkward'.
Yes, those other goalies don't have NHL contracts like Irving does, but that really shouldn't matter. There is contract space right now (which I know the Flames want to keep open to try and sign some NCAA guys or just keep open for possible trades in the future), but a good goalie is a good goalie, and anyone can be signed where they see fit. If someone surpasses Irving CONSISTENTLY, then I would have no problem awarding him a contract, and cutting Irving the following season.
Competition is only healthy, and if Irving can't rise to the occasion at the AHL level after so many seasons and beat out everyone else, then he will definitely not rise to the occasion at the NHL level. I am 100% confident that if he is a future NHL starting goalie (or even a good backup), he will just 'take' his opportunity. If Ward feels he has a better chance to win with Brust, or Taylor, or whomever else in the future, then the Flames also have a better chance of winning by signing one of those goalies and making that goalie a backup.
Irving has been in the AHL developing, and has tasted what it is like to be in the NHL. Let's see if he actually matures and shows that he belongs in the NHL by at least beating out two other journeymen goalies in the AHL.
I think this is the season the Flames either throw him up on the team (if/when the lockout ends) or cut him next season completely - but I do think it is 100% up to Irving. Considering he is a 1st round draft choice, he will be awarded all the opportunities possible. He either makes the most of it, or that is it with him in the organization after this year. There is no way that Ward will not play Irving - how much he plays will end up being on how well Irving actually performs. There is just no way that the organization has 'cut' him yet - but Irving will need to show that he is a consistent goalie for a season + playoffs - something I don't think he has quite done as of yet.
I agree with everything you have said. The things i would add is that Taylor out played Irving in the final part of the season. It might have had to due with the birth of his new baby and going back and fourth from AHL to NHL.
The concerning part is where do the flames really see Irving? Feaster said he was very close to having Ramo as the backup for this season. Irving would not have been playing in North America this season unless he was traded. I don't think the flames could have gotten anything better than a 3rd for Irving if that's the case. More than likely Irving would have been in Europe if Ramo did come over.
Irving will get his chance with the Heat this season. Brust is not even the real backup right now. The only reason he is on the bench is because Irving has a max of 50 games he can suite up for.
Irving will get his chance with the Heat this season. Brust is not even the real backup right now. The only reason he is on the bench is because Irving has a max of 50 games he can suite up for.
Big assumption there. Ward has talked a lot about having a lot of faith in Brust. Don't think they signed him merely to be the 3rd stringer all the time. Wouldn't surprise me at all if Brust plays as much as Taylor or Irving.
Will be interesting to see how the situation develops. Perhaps Abbotsford will trade a goalie at some point during the season. Some of the flexibility is presumably because Irving would likely be Kipper's backup if the NHL actually goes ahead this year and management still wants two solid goalies in Abby if that happens in order to keep good depth at the AHL level and throughout the organization.
What would happen in Kiprusoff was injured? Look at how the depth would change. What would happen if two goalies in the organization were injured? I still remember the year we lost 4-5 goalies to injury.
When Ward said, "This is Danny's net right now," I couldn't really blame him. The AHL is weird in that a goalie playing back-to-back games is not abnormal like it is in the NHL.
So, when Taylor stopped 26 shots on Friday night and made some spectacular saves on top of it, it was a no brainer for Ward to put him back in. After letting in a couple of weak goals in the first period, I was wondering if Ward would give Brust a shot, but he didn't and Taylor rebounded pretty good.
It wouldn't surprise me one bit to see Taylor back in net on Friday against Chicago. The Wolves, like the Heat, are 2-0-0 so they're a better team than the Rivermen. So, thinking like "mysterious" Ward, do you burn a couple of games by putting Irving in as the backup just in case Taylor isn't good OR do you keep it as is with Brust as the backup because Brust "might be more capable than the other two [goalies]" (link).
It's so hard to predict what Ward will do and it's futile to try. But I do agree with you guys; sitting in the rafters is not helping his development. Period. Truly, I don't know what the answer is. Do you put Irving in even if it means some lost games or do you put a fairly consistent winning goaltender in for the good of the team and the development of the other prospects.
Such a tough situation.
Last edited by Pierre "Monster" McGuire; 10-15-2012 at 11:03 PM.
I also wanted to give a huge kudos to Dustin Sylvester. We're all excited about Sven's four points in two games (as we should be), but what about Sylvester's four points in two games? No doubt he'll be a beneficiary of playing with Sven and Walter, but this is great for his development.
Also, Horak has already scored as many goals this season as he did in 14 games with the Heat last season. Not too bad. Both of his goals have been within a foot or two of the crease too.
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