2013 NFL regular season thread

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by jason14h

so when flacco outduels (which he did by a large margin) manning and brady on the road in the playoffs on the way to a superbowl it's the team that won. But when he has bad td numbers it's the qb's fault.

Ok at least we got that round about logic out of the way! Probably a cowboys fans who will preach romo's nfl history best 4th q rating next

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[Pagal4321]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

They paid what they needed to in order to keep Flacco, if they don't give him that contract another team does. He is overpaid but if there is a position in the NFL where you should overpay it is QB.

It is hard to find a QB in the NFL that can consistently help you win games. Sure Flacco may not put up the best stats but he tends to do just enough to get the win.

This is spot on when it comes to looking at Flacco. Comparing what each team pays a QB doesn't make for the best comparison.

Was that QB a FA? What was the market when that QB signed his contract?

Like the quoted poster said, if the Ravens didn't offer that money to Flacco another team would have. Coming off a Super Bowl year as well, all the leverage was with the QB.

But continue on comparing apples and oranges, it's entertaining really.

[Sylvanfan]

I expect that Flacco will redo that deal after next season. Keep in mind the likes of Brady and Manning at one point in their career got paid, and today are willing to take less money so that their teams can spend it elsewhere to help them win. Still in their past they had a couple of seasons where they were paid big time and their teams had to surround them with lesser pieces to pay that money.

Flacco's numbers do look average, but he's started 94 straight games, and done enough for the Ravens to be a playoff team every year. It's really not that easy to replace a player like that. Sure a Matt Cassel or Josh McCown can get hot for 5-6 games and put up better numbers, but Flacco gives the Ravens steady play at the position, and that's what they need. Had they got rid of him it's unknown if a Mike Glennon could have the team in the position they are today.

[OILFAN #81]

Hopefully Flacco can get 2 more regular season wins this year! Need the Ravens to go 2-0 to end the year.

[Senator Clay Davis]

People seem to be forgetting something critical to the Joe Flacco contract: The Ravens could have franchised him, with the non-exclusive tag. And in doing so, if someone like the Browns or Cardinals wanted to come along and give Joe Flacco $20 million a season, the Ravens can say "Ok then, thats absurd for what he does as a QB, we'll take the two first round picks as compensation instead".

So which would you rather have: Joe Flacco at $20 million a year, or Josh McCown and 2 first round picks? Based of their play this year, you would have to be, well, Jerry Jones the GM, to take Flacco over the alternative. Did Flacco sign for market rate? Well, no. The market rate for the 10th-20th best QB in the NFL, Flacco's range, is probably $7-10 million a season. Good for him using his leverage, but the Ravens had a chance to be well compensated to see him go elsewhere. Bad PR? Maybe. Smart football move? Absolutely.

[SuperMatt18]

You are cherry picking though since McCown had a good year, there are plenty of teams still looking for replacement level QBs, let alone good QBs that can win you a playoff game.

If you are a Ravens fan do you prefer:

Joe Flacco + Playoffs

or

2 First Rounders + (Cassell, Henne, Ponder, Freeman, etc)+ No Playoffs

Joe Flacco may not be a great QB but he is clutch, and when you have a good defense that can get you a SB ring. No reason for the Ravens to throw that away just yet.

[Senator Clay Davis]

McCown would have provided you the same play as Joe Flacco is my point, ignoring their current seasons. McCown is a strong veteran QB, not some fluke on a run. I think you get at least comparable production, and more than likely, fewer turnovers, from McCown.

If you look at Joe Flacco's numbers right now (18TD, 17INT, 60%, 6.5 YPA), you could probably look at 20 QBs in this league who could do the same. In fact, here are some who are doing better this year: RGIII (16T, 12I, 60%, 7YPA), Carson Palmer (21T, 17I, 64%, 7.4 YPA) and Ryan Fitzpatrick (13T, 10I, 62%, 7YPA). Joe Flacco's numbers are actually below average in terms of completion % and YPA. Its not like we're comparing Joe against the best, when compared against average he's looking up.

Joe Flacco is good enough to win you a Super Bowl if the rest of the team around him is very good. Drew Brees, Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers have all won a Super Bowl with mediocre teams around them. Aaron Rodgers should be a legit MVP candidate this year based how awful they looked without him. They can win the Super Bowl with him, and would be in the Clowney sweepstakes without him. I said it before but if Joe Flacco is worth $20 million a season, Aaron Rodgers is worth $100 million a season.

And just so I'm not putting all that heat on Flacco, Matt Ryan's contract is just as bad, and actually I'd probably rather give the $20 million per to Flacco. But they're both terrible contracts.

[GirlySports]

Joe Flacco leads all QBs this year with 272 yards on Pass Interference penalties.

so there!

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

I expect that Flacco will redo that deal after next season. Keep in mind the likes of Brady and Manning at one point in their career got paid, and today are willing to take less money so that their teams can spend it elsewhere to help them win. Still in their past they had a couple of seasons where they were paid big time and their teams had to surround them with lesser pieces to pay that money.

But that isn't how it works. NONE of them renegotiate to take less money.
They renegotiate and convert some of the annual salary into signing bonus. That spreads the cap hit over a longer term. It is short term cap relief for the team and the player get their money now instead of waiting.

I’ve heard many comments in the past week along the lines of, Well, Tom Brady took less in regard to the Patriots quarterback’s February contract extension. It would be a heartwarming story, except for one small detail: Tom Brady didn’t take less; he took more.

Brady reality

Prior to his extension, Brady was scheduled to earn $30 million combined for the 2013 and 2014 seasons. Following the extension, Brady was scheduled to earn $33 million for the 2013 and 2014 seasons, with much better payment terms.

Brady did create short-term cap savings for the Patriots, presumably to retain Wes Welker, among others. However, Brady (1) received much better cash flow, including a $30 million signing bonus, on his two-year earnings, (2) gained another “chip” to use at the bargaining table with the Patriots when necessary, and (3) stacked further amounts to his future cap charges, complicating any possible divorce with the team.

http://mmqb.si.com/2013/12/05/kobe-b...ady-contracts/

Under the new terms of the contract, Manning will still earn the $40 million in guaranteed money over the next two seasons, but the payouts of those amounts has been tweaked.

Instead of earning $20 million in fully guaranteed base salaries in 2013 and 2014, Manning received a $10 million salary advance and his base salaries in 2013 and 2014 have been lowered to $15 million in each season. The $10 million salary advance is treated like a signing bonus and will be prorated over the next four seasons, reducing Manning's cap number from $20 million to $17.5 million in both 2013 and 2014.

However, the downside to the cap savings the next two seasons is that Manning's cap number will increase by $2.5 million, going from $19 million to $21.5 million, in both 2015 and 2016 as the Broncos will have veered, slightly, from the "pay as you go" approach they had been taking with the 37-year-old quarterback.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-sh...173612692.html

[Jason14h]

Just because I can't stand people that think the Ravens D was good (or ok) last season

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http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=330112007
http://espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=330120017

I guess the D won these games giving up 800 yds and 60 pts, not the QB who had arguably the greatest postseason in NFL history (and easily top 2)

[Jason14h]

If you look at Joe Flacco's numbers right now (18TD, 17INT, 60%, 6.5 YPA), you could probably look at 20 QBs in this league who could do the same. In fact, here are some who are doing better this year: RGIII (16T, 12I, 60%, 7YPA), Carson Palmer (21T, 17I, 64%, 7.4 YPA) and Ryan Fitzpatrick (13T, 10I, 62%, 7YPA). Joe Flacco's numbers are actually below average in terms of completion % and YPA. Its not like we're comparing Joe against the best, when compared against average he's looking up.

Put any of those QB's with the O-Line Balt has and they literally would be dead.

I don't think you realize how historically bad this O-Line is. 1/4 of rushes are for 0 or loose yds. Most false starts. Most holding penalties. No running game. No TE until last game. No #2 or #3 WR

That being said he will never be in the top stats wise. Flacco has 1 elite weapon, and that's his arm strength. His completion % will always be low, but when you can make 1-2 huge plays a game that result in auto points (hitting a deep ball or deep PI call) you can be average the rest of the game and still win.

Plus, in the cold playoff weather in the AFC, throwing into the wind and bad conditions, it is a huge advantage

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

I guess the D won these games giving up 800 yds and 60 pts, not the QB who had arguably the greatest postseason in NFL history (and easily top 2)

Partially incorrect. They did not allow 60 points, there were two special teams TDs scored, so 46 points allowed. Its also worth pointing out that Baltimore fired its offensive co-ordinator right before the playoffs. They had offensive issues as late as week 16. Joe Flacco had a great run, no doubt about it...but that's the thing, he got paid pretty much entirely because of that run. So, by that logic, if Andy Dalton does the same thing this year, he's worth $20 million a season, which of course he's not, but again neither is Joe Flacco.

Put any of those QB's with the O-Line Balt has and they literally would be dead.

I don't think you realize how historically bad this O-Line is. 1/4 of rushes are for 0 or loose yds. Most false starts. Most holding penalties. No running game. No TE until last game. No #2 or #3 WR

Well RGIII does have a worse offensive line and he basically did get killed. No running game has a lot to do with defenses scheming to stop Ray Rice and make Joe Flacco beat them. My whole point here hasn't been that Flacco is terrible, he's just not worth $20 million a season. That should be reserved for the Brees and Manning and Rodgers of the world, guys who can make average players look elite and good players look like Hall of Famers. Flacco is a solid QB but won't ever be much more.

[DropIt]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

McCown would have provided you the same play as Joe Flacco is my point, ignoring their current seasons. McCown is a strong veteran QB, not some fluke on a run. I think you get at least comparable production, and more than likely, fewer turnovers, from McCown.

If you look at Joe Flacco's numbers right now (18TD, 17INT, 60%, 6.5 YPA), you could probably look at 20 QBs in this league who could do the same. In fact, here are some who are doing better this year: RGIII (16T, 12I, 60%, 7YPA), Carson Palmer (21T, 17I, 64%, 7.4 YPA) and Ryan Fitzpatrick (13T, 10I, 62%, 7YPA). Joe Flacco's numbers are actually below average in terms of completion % and YPA. Its not like we're comparing Joe against the best, when compared against average he's looking up.

Joe Flacco is good enough to win you a Super Bowl if the rest of the team around him is very good. Drew Brees, Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers have all won a Super Bowl with mediocre teams around them. Aaron Rodgers should be a legit MVP candidate this year based how awful they looked without him. They can win the Super Bowl with him, and would be in the Clowney sweepstakes without him. I said it before but if Joe Flacco is worth $20 million a season, Aaron Rodgers is worth $100 million a season.

And just so I'm not putting all that heat on Flacco, Matt Ryan's contract is just as bad, and actually I'd probably rather give the $20 million per to Flacco. But they're both terrible contracts.

Naw, he is pretty much a fluke on a run.

The difference here is Trestman, who could do a lot to make McCown into a legitimate late blooming starter in the NFL, but otherwise he has never, ever looked anywhere close to this on any team he has played for.

He doesnt have all the tools but he has experience and the right mindset to be starting as long as he has a good support crew and like-minded offense.

[Pagal4321]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

People seem to be forgetting something critical to the Joe Flacco contract: The Ravens could have franchised him, with the non-exclusive tag. And in doing so, if someone like the Browns or Cardinals wanted to come along and give Joe Flacco $20 million a season, the Ravens can say "Ok then, thats absurd for what he does as a QB, we'll take the two first round picks as compensation instead".

So which would you rather have: Joe Flacco at $20 million a year, or Josh McCown and 2 first round picks? Based of their play this year, you would have to be, well, Jerry Jones the GM, to take Flacco over the alternative. Did Flacco sign for market rate? Well, no. The market rate for the 10th-20th best QB in the NFL, Flacco's range, is probably $7-10 million a season. Good for him using his leverage, but the Ravens had a chance to be well compensated to see him go elsewhere. Bad PR? Maybe. Smart football move? Absolutely.

hahahahaha....<breath>....hahahaha

1. Hindsight is a lovely tool to have.

2. Great message to show the QB that just won you the Super Bowl, no matter how average he is.

3. Josh McCown? He's playing lights out due to the system he plays in and the WR's making unbelievable plays.

It's like Flacco stole your lunch money and you are holding a grudge against him. Yes he's an average QB, getting paid more than he probably should be but such is life in the QB driven NFL.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Josh McCown isn't a saviour, hes just a solid QB, the perfect backup, but can still play well. Even if you say this run is a total fluke, Josh McCown's 3 seasons that he played significant QB before this season are:

11TDs, 10INTs, 59%
9TDs, 11INTs, 60%
10TDs, 11INTs, 58%

So...pretty much exactly what you're getting from Joe Flacco right now. Except for $3 million a year (if that). As to great message to send, well how about the fact Peyton ####ing Manning got released. One of the top 5 QBs ever...released. That's 50 times more egregious in terms of disrespect than not giving a top 15 QB top 2 QB money. Respect is nothing in the game where no contracts are guaranteed.

And as a Viking fan I'm sure now you're wishing they went with Matt Cassel from day 1. Is he great? Not a chance, but a solid veteran who knows the game, combined with a good team around him, can win in this league. It doesn't take spending $20 million on a QB if he's worth $10 million.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Josh McCown isn't a saviour, hes just a solid QB, the perfect backup, but can still play well. Even if you say this run is a total fluke, Josh McCown's 3 seasons that he played significant QB before this season are:

11TDs, 10INTs, 59%
9TDs, 11INTs, 60%
10TDs, 11INTs, 58%

So...pretty much exactly what you're getting from Joe Flacco right now.

Except you are downplaying Joe Flacco's career and consistency.

Flacco has consistently been a 20 td, 10 interception guy that averages 225 ypg and stretches the field with the deep ball.

Also he has been able to step his game up in the playoffs and is still pretty young.

Overpaying Joe Flacco is a better result then relying on journeymen or hoping you hit on a QB in the draft.

[Jason14h]

http://overthecap.com/top-player-sal...hp?Position=QB

Take a look at the Salaries, and is Flacco really overpaid compared to the others?

The 1 thing I think this shows is the big 4 (Brees, Manning, Brady and Rodgers) are underpaid

Everyone else could be argued is overpayed.

OR THAT'S THE COST OF A QB!

P.S. (Flacco will renegotiate after next year since so much of his isn't guaranteed. They just wanted him the be the highest paid after winning the superbowl, which last 2? weeks until other QB's started signing)

[Senator Clay Davis]

I hope QB salaries start coming down, not going up. Taking up 16% of the cap is absurd. Flacco was key last year, but so was Justin Tucker, making that huge FG in OT to beat Denver. So was Ray Rice converting that 4th and 29 in the regular season, a game that helped them win the division. QBs are important, but more important than a great offensive line? Or a front seven that can consistently make the passer's life miserable? I think unless you're guys like Rodgers and Manning, who allow you to be cheaper when it comes to skill positions (because they make nobodies somebodies), devoting 1/6 of your cap space to a QB isn't worth it.

[Pagal4321]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Josh McCown isn't a saviour, hes just a solid QB, the perfect backup, but can still play well. Even if you say this run is a total fluke, Josh McCown's 3 seasons that he played significant QB before this season are:

11TDs, 10INTs, 59%
9TDs, 11INTs, 60%
10TDs, 11INTs, 58%

So...pretty much exactly what you're getting from Joe Flacco right now. Except for $3 million a year (if that). As to great message to send, well how about the fact Peyton ####ing Manning got released. One of the top 5 QBs ever...released. That's 50 times more egregious in terms of disrespect than not giving a top 15 QB top 2 QB money. Respect is nothing in the game where no contracts are guaranteed.

And as a Viking fan I'm sure now you're wishing they went with Matt Cassel from day 1. Is he great? Not a chance, but a solid veteran who knows the game, combined with a good team around him, can win in this league. It doesn't take spending $20 million on a QB if he's worth $10 million.

As a Vikings fan I'd take Joe Flacco in a god damn heartbeat.

So wait, you say Flacco aint worth the paper his contract is printed on but that Chicago would trade two first rounders for him?

Make up your mind....

[Senator Clay Davis]

Why would the Bears offer sheet (not trade, the non-exclusive tag means two first round picks as compensation...plus can't exactly trade a FA) Flacco when they have Cutler, another guy who's pretty much the same? I used McCown cause he was a UFA this offseason; had Flacco left they would probably bring in a veteran.

And speaking of Cutler, he's the guy with the chance to be this years Flacco if the Bears make the playoffs and make a run. Would Chicago pay him the same deal?